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How did he die?
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imanobody wrote:
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I dont see how that 'convicts' Aye of Tut's murder.
I do, it shows that he has a history of murder.

Problem 1: There is no evidence Tut was murdered.
Problem 2: Even if you could prove Aye murdered Zuzannza lacking a link, it doesnt prove anything regarding Tut's death. At most you have shown he wasnt a nice guy.
Problem 3: The bigger question is left open as to why he didnt marry Mrs Tut right away if the throne was the goal. The delay rather seems to exculpate him to some extent.

You are rather silent on just what your theory is and I was curious how a later putative murder proves foul play in a previous death. Your post clearly implied you thought the letter was legit and really from Ankhessenamun. The events and circumstances sort of make that unlikely. The more wily and manipulative you want to make Aye out to be, the less likely she is able to entertain Hittite envoys under his nose.

imanobody wrote:
Quote:
Aye may have instructed her to send the letter and expected he would be some sort of grand vizier for them
So your going to fight my assumptions with your own?

On the contrary. I dont fully subscribe to any of the scenarios - they merely draw some support from the course of events. If you ponder them a bit, they suggest 1 or 2 guys working out how to manage the situation and protect the kingdom in the absence of a royal successor.

imanobody wrote:
He had to motive, the means, and the opportunity... case closed.
Hardly.
Motive - I suppose you mean the throne. But if that is the case why wait until the kid is 18 to whack him? Why wait til after he ascends? Why not in childhood when it would raise less suspicions (then and now), less resistance and better chance of succeeding ? He'd also have a more pliant widow to deal with.

Means - What means? No head trauma, no wounds, nothing but a possible leg fracture which might have gotten infected if accompanied by a break in the skin. That really only leaves black magic or poison both of which have no evidence.

Quote:
We've already heard that Akenaten could've been killed by him.
Yup, and it must be true because it was on the internet.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Problem 1: There is no evidence Tut was murdered.

Well, considering how we can't even prove murder today (even if we have the victims blood on a person's socks, video tape evidence of them wearing the same gloves, the murder happening just a block from their house, tapes of the suspect saying they are going to kill them, etc.) how in the world can we REALLY ever prove a murder that happened over 3000 years ago.
If I see a fox roaming around the woods and then chickens start showing up missing from the hen house, I don't need to think too hard to figure out where they went. So, I guess it depends on wheither you see Aye as a innocent old man that had an incredible streak of good luck, or as a cold blooded serial killer (ok, that may be stretching it). You obviously see him as the first and me the later.

Quote:
Your post clearly implied you thought the letter was legit and really from Ankhessenamun.

Ok, you say that my theory is wrong because I have no proof. But then when I show it you say it's faked. You're starting to sound like an Aye defender Razz

Quote:
Motive - I suppose you mean the throne. But if that is the case why wait until the kid is 18 to whack him?

It is well known that child Pharaohs were pawns to the preist and politicians, there was no need to kill him then. Killing the king is a very risky thing and Aye probably wanted to wait to the very last minute so he could be in power as long he could, just in case he got caught. Also, maybe he thought that Tut would get himself killed in a battle, or something like that.

Quote:
Why wait til after he ascends?

Maybe it was easier for him to assume the throne from a king, then a child. Maybe the time wasn't right and he was just waiting for his oppertunity. Maybe he thought that he could control Tut when he was king like he could when he was a child, only to find out that he couldn't.

Quote:
What means? No head trauma, no wounds, nothing but a possible leg fracture which might have gotten infected if accompanied by a break in the skin. That really only leaves black magic or poison both of which have no evidence.

Nothing has been proven and even the experts can't agree on this, so it's open session on this one.

There are a lot of Pharoahs that died at a young age and I don't think they were killed, so this isn't the rantings of a conspiracy theorist here. Remember the plot of Ramses III's harem? If there was no papers saying that the harem was involved in the plot and I came here saying that they were the ones that tried it, I guess you would say I was crazy. But now since we have evidence, it doesn't look crazy at all... but it's a lot more crazy then Aye killing Tut!

I would like to say that I don't believe that he killed him with his own two hands; I'm sure he had someone else do the dirting work for him.

Just friendly banter, I hope you don't get too offended by my Aye "bashing" Wink
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, already two pages in less then a day.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imanobody wrote:
Quote:
Problem 1: There is no evidence Tut was murdered.
Well, considering how we can't even prove murder today (even if we have the victims blood on a person's socks...

There is a difference between evidence and conviction. Bloody thumbprints, socks and gloves ARE evidence; whether or not a jury sees it as proof and convicts is another matter entirely. I am not asking for proof he was killed, just evidence. "Well, we know Aye is evil to the core, so lets talk about how evil he really is...", doesnt really suffice.

imanobody wrote:
Quote:
Your post clearly implied you thought the letter was legit and really from Ankhessenamun.
Ok, you say that my theory is wrong because I have no proof. But then when I show it you say it's faked.
I think I missed the part where you showed where it is legit. And then the part where it was a factor in Tut's death 8 or so monthe earlier.

imanobody wrote:
Quote:
Motive - I suppose you mean the throne. But if that is the case why wait until the kid is 18 to whack him? Why wait til after he ascends?
Killing the king is a very risky thing and Aye probably wanted to wait to the very last minute so he could be in power as long he could...
Also, maybe he thought that Tut would get himself killed in a battle, or something like that.
The first one makes no sense: the sooner Aye whacks Tut, the longer Aye is in power; which begs the question why delay even further thru the letter writing campaign to claim the throne?

In the second case, the ultra-evil Aye, advanced in years and with far more days behind him than ahead of him is patiently waiting 8 or 9 years for a freak event in a battle to maybe do his dirty work for him? Thats hardly characteristic of an aggressive, power hungry killer.

imanobody wrote:
Maybe it was easier ...Maybe the time wasn't right... Maybe he thought...
Is your entire theory supposition flowing from the preconviction that Aye is guilty?

What I was attempting to show is that an unbiased look at events doesnt really show a power hungry, evil old man who cant wait to off the cute kid. The course of events rather indicate the opposite.

imanobody wrote:
Quote:
What means? No head trauma, no wounds.
Nothing has been proven and even the experts can't agree on this, so it's open session on this one.

Au contraire.
A: "The entire team agrees that there is NO evidence for murder present in the skull of Tutankhamun. There is NO area on the back of the skull that indicates a partially healed blow." Emphasis in original.
B: "The team has noted a fracture of the left lower femur (thighbone), at the level of the epiphyseal plate. This fracture appears different from the many breaks caused by Carter’s team: it has ragged rather than sharp edges, and there are two layers of embalming material present inside.
Part of the team ...maintain that the fracture mentioned above can only have been done by Carter’s team during extraction of the body from the coffin." There is partial agreement as to the leg injury.
C: "The sternum and a large percentage of the front ribs are now missing, evidently along with the much of the front chest wall... Opinion among team members is divided as to whether the ribs and sternum were removed by the embalmers or by Carter’s team." No one thinks it happened pre-mortem.

There seems to be clear agreement that there is no evidence of foul play. The extant disagreement is over cause of death. If Aye broke his leg to kill him, he sure chose the least sure means and one that left his victim alive and conscious for a while to point fingers.

imanobody wrote:
I would like to say that I don't believe that he killed him with his own two hands

I used to think that IF Tut had been murdered (none of the causes previously offered were totally compelling), then Aye was probably involved. The timing had to be of some significance because smothering a 12 year old is easier than beating an 18 year old to death. Motive, then would not seem to be a naked grab for power.

Lacking any clear evidence (not proof, just evidence) of foul play, that goes by the wayside. Thats not to say that lacking an heir apparent, there wasnt a power struggle between Aye and Horemheb or perhaps collusion. But stepping into a power vacuum is a far different thing from creating it thru regicide.
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Ankhesenamun15
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey for a start Mrs Tut...was called Ankhesenamun. the hitite king Zannanza was killed through Ay, whether by his own hand or through others, Ay had him killed, not to start a war, which wouldn't be the greatest idea at that time, as the country wasn't to strong. Purely for Ay's benefit it was, so he could become Pharaoh.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

feel free to substantiate any of these statements of fact with some sort of evidence at any time
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok... when Akenaten was a live he sent letters to the hittie King, asking for a prince for his daughter to marry, this is for two reasons he knew his death was pretty imminent and didn't think Tutankhamun could reign over the kingdom, and secondly for peace with the Hittites, the way he had placed the knew Capital, and abandoning Thebes, left the principle cities vulnerable to attack.
The letters to Zannanza have been found, and records of these occurings. Also records of his murder were found obviously in the Hitties empire.
And as for actual facts can anyone ever be possible of anything that happed around 1333bc??? It is all opinion and theory.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry last reply was abit rushed and i messed it up, i meant can anyone be positive of anything that happened around 1333bc???the second paragraph is the letters from Ankhesenamun and th top paragraph the letters from Akenten.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
when Akenaten was a live he sent letters to the hittie King, asking for a prince for his daughter to marry
What is the basis for this? There is no evidence for such marriage letters in either the Armarna Letters or Hittite Archives from Boghaz Koy. Is this is the Smenkhare is Zanannza theory?

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
[he] didn't think Tutankhamun could reign over the kingdom
What about his extant coregent?

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
the way he had placed the knew Capital, and abandoning Thebes, left the principle cities vulnerable to attack.
As Akhetaten was placed NORTH of Thebes it would have no impact on the protection of Memphis or Abydos, and be a more tempting target than Thebes, thus protecting it.

Quote:
Also records of his murder were found obviously in the Hitties empire.
There are no 'records of his murder', rather Hittite claims of such - as well as Egyptian denials. The Hittites were very fond of exaggerating petty issues to justify an attack. No matter if the prince had contracted plague or tripped and broke his neck, foul play on the part of the Egyptians would likely have been claimed for any result of the trip other than Zanannza as King.

There are simply scads of people who would have a motive for killing the prince. Any military commander who was appalled at a foreign king especially so soon after the Hyksos expulsion, for instance. The elderly Aye is just one of many. It does seem most likely that the Hittite entourage did meet with foul play, but as with so much else it is not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

Quote:
It is all opinion and theory.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look i didn't come on here for an argument, and how dare you call me a liar on your other message saying about Akenaten being killed by Ay!
And if you mean co-regent? As in his wife Nefertiti, your seriously deluded, as if she had any power once Akenaten died, a heretic couple, the people wanted to return to the old gods, Ay took his oppurtunity killed Akenaten and Nefertiti fled.
Also i did not say that Aketaten didn't protect Thebes, Akenaten couldn't have cared less about Thebes anyway, yes it was his Kingdom but it was of no importance to him, as it was the city of Amun. He left Memphis and Abydos as well, all he cared about was his God and his family. And once he realised he had lost control and people started revolted, he tried to make everything better by getting the support off the Hittites and offered them a daughter. As for this leg injury you keep going on about, whats your evidence for that? Tutankhamun had a lame leg anyway, look at every picture you see he had a walking stick, or was seated. Even hunting scenes he was seated for. And 365 shabtis he was buried with, one for every day of th year, other Pharaohs have around ten, but he needs 365 days, he was ill!![/quote]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh nearly forgot, you say why wait until eighteen. Well Tutankhamun had been claimed successor, however Tutankhamun was a puppet ruler, the work was done by Ay Horemheb and Maya, in the name of the king. As the king grew older he became more independant, it has also been said he wished to change back to the way of the Aten, they couldn't allow this after all the hard work they had done, and the country would go into uproar. So as his independance grew and he spoke out, they decided to get rid of him. oh and the mummification was a disaster, i know you said it wasn't but it was, they used too much natron the body dried to much and the bones became brittle and damaged.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
how dare you call me a liar on your other message saying about Akenaten being killed by Ay!
I did no such thing. You made a statement of absolute fact ("he did kill Akenaten") and I simply asked what the basis of that incredible statement was. No one is arguing with you, but your theories are far from unassailable.

Quote:
And if you mean co-regent? As in his wife Nefertiti
No, I was referring to the rather well attested Ankhkheprure Nefernefruaten, who while it is not certain who this person was, it seems certain they were made coregent about year 15 and died about the same time as Akhenaten.

Quote:
Also i did not say that Aketaten didn't protect Thebes
What "principle cities" were then less defended by the placement of the capital? There arent many cities more important than Memphis, Thebes and Abydos.

Quote:
As for this leg injury you keep going on about, whats your evidence for that?
It is thoroughly covered in the report on the results of the March 2005 CT scan of Tut's mummy. Portions of it quoted earlier. While there is agreement that there is no evidence of head trauma (and ergo murder), some believed a leg fracture was recent and may have led to his death.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

look ive loved Ancient Egypt since i was about 3 years old no joke, and my main passion is Tutankhamun.
Akenatens principal wife Nefertiti was also his co-regent no other, Ankhkheprure Nefernefruaten was financial advisor to Akenaten.
And the principal cities- i meant he abandoned Thebes no Memphis and Abydos, and there were lots of other cities that needed protection, but it wasn't given.
I am sorry i do not remember quotes off the top off my head, but i do not have my books and/or essays with me!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten's named was written inside a cartouche, so this person was a co-regent and likely Akhenaten's successor.

From the archeological data is seems clear that Akhenaten's intended successor was Smenkhare, the husband of his eldest daughter Meritaten.

The finance at the time of AKhenaten would have actually been in the hands of the official Tutu. He held the titles 'Overseer of Silver and Gold of the Lord of the Two Lands', 'Overseer of the Treasury of the Aten' and quite a few more.

The position of treasurer was later filled by Maya (under Tutankhamen).

About letters written by Akhenaten asking for a hisband for his daughter: Extremely unlikely because Egyptian Pharaohs were known to have been rather haughty in that respect. Akhenaten's father had refused a request to marry one of his daughters daughter off.

But even more important is that the letters were signed by "Dahamunzu" which is now thought to stand for "Ta hemet nesu" the title of the Queen.
Furthermore, the very last letter (the 6th) in the exchange is signed by Aye. The Hittite King even makes a point out of saying that he would never have sent a son if he had known that Aye was now King in the letter just preceding that.
From the people involved it is clear that this letter exchange took place in the time from just after the death of Tut up to the very beginning of the reign of Aye.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
Oh nearly forgot, you say why wait until eighteen. ... As the king grew older he became more independant, it has also been said he wished to change back to the way of the Aten
I think that is generally possible and perhaps somewhat likely, but it is ultimately just a notion.

As there is no evidence of foul play (see the CT scan report), the notion that 'they decided to get rid of him' as well as the above motive is seriously diminished. It is remains possible he was whacked thru means like poison which we cannot detect, but it now seems to be a much more speculative case.

Quote:
oh and the mummification was a disaster, i know you said it wasn't
I was quoting the report on the 2005 CT scan. I am content to accept the expert's findings as credible.
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