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Usage of N1 instead of N35

 
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Sandan.1380
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Usage of N1 instead of N35 Reply with quote

Hi everybody!
I'm currently working on the inscription of this statue ( here as well), which has also been transcribed by Kenneth A. kitchen in "Ramesside inscriptions: volume 3" (which has been uploaded on Archive.org, though I don't know why I can't post it here) at page 746.
At the end of line 3, there is clearly an N1 sign right under the F26 sign. kitchen, however, transcribes it as an N35. An "n" monoliteral would make much more sense in this position, but it's clearly not the sign written on the original!
I found no information about any interchangeable use of these two signs, nor have I come across any occurrence of the sequence F26-N1-W24-G43-O1 (as the sentence goes on in line 4), but I suppose that I've got such a limited number of sources that it doesn't even matter.

Got any ideas? I've opened a similar topic in an Italian forum, but we basically gave up after some research.
Ciao. Smile
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll need to look up the inscription to be sure, but here's a speculation: it might have been an emendation of kitchen's (correcting an error in the original). I can see where on papyrus N1 and N35 could have been confused, though I wouldn't think it would be a problem on a carved monument where (presumably) more care would have been taken.

In short, perhaps kitchen realized that the monument inscription is "misspelled."
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Sandan.1380
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it probably is a mistake, since N35 is basically the only sign that could go there, in such a frequent and standardized phrase. On the other hand, I supposed that this also meant that no scribe could have ever got confused about its spelling!

I had no idea that confusion could happen to this regard in papyrus. I think it might be a great explanation - I forgot to mention that the statue was found in Deir El-Medina where, if I'm not mistaken, also artisans and workers of the village would read and write, sometimes even making their own funerary monuments. I don't really know if this means something though.

Thanks a lot for the message! I'm looking forward to reading what you'll find.

Ciao. Smile
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Statue of Penmernab, NK, 19th Dynasty (1292-1190 BC), Deir el-Medina, Turin C. 3032

kitchen follows

Gaston Maspero : Rapport à M. Jules Ferry, Ministre de l'Instruction Publique, sur une mission en Italie. - In: Recueil de travaux relatifs à la philologie et à l'archéologie égyptiennes et assyriennes 2. - 1880. - pp. 159 - 199. - Page 177 - 178 :



without notes or corrections.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A comment from Michael Tilgner ...

Quote:
The sign in question is undoubtedly N35 as it belongs to the word m-Xnw "within, inside". It is not N1 as can be seen on the socle of this statue, left side: nb p.t "lord of heaven", where N1 is a thick line only. The sign at the end of line 3 is not "misspelled"; I think it is an abbreviated N35 as there is not enough space for the regular sign. It reminds me of the cursive hieroglyphic N35 (cursive hieroglyphs are hieroglyphs written on papyrus), see one example of papyrus Ani, where it is a line with thickened ends. The example shows several N35s: nn wn=sn "they do not exist".


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Sandan.1380
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!
First of all, thanks a lot, Lutz, for your reply. It definitely cleared my mind and it also allowed me (or more precisely us in the Italian forum ) to go further with the translation.
To this regard, I wonder if you people in this forum could also help us with the translation of the last lines of the inscription, from in in line 5 on. This is what we came up with:
(An offer the king gives to Amun...who offers according to Maat...who makes humans into the appearance of gods)
in hapy (w)nm sw sanx pat rxyt
who takes possession of Hapy, who feeds him, who gives life to the human genre and the subordinates of the king.

I suppose that the verbs could also be interpreted as imperatives reffering directly to Amun?[/b][/i][/url]
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A comment from Michael Tilgner ...

Quote:
My view of line 5:

jn Hapy n wnm.w sw
"who brings the Nile-flood for those who are eating from it"

jn perfective active participle of jnj "to bring"

Hapj "Nile-flood" Wb III, 42.17, here as personification (determinative of a god) - see also the phrase jnn.t Hapj "what the Nile is bringing", namely its products (the fishes)

wnm "to eat" (writing with Z11, Wb I, 320) - used as a noun.

Alan H. Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, § 298: "A rather precarious distinction is made between infinitives that are nominal and infinitives that are verbal, the former given to those which, from the point of syntax, have nothing to distinguish them from nouns, while the latter, for one or other of the reasons given above, are more like narrative verbs. The nominal infinitive may be qualified by an adjectival epithet, may take an indirect genitive after it, may be put into the plural, may serve as predicate in the sentence with pw, and so forth."

sw dependent pronoun, referring to Hapj, object of wnm

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Sandan.1380
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks a lot, Lutz.
Your help has been, once again, of great vaue to me.
May I ask you who Michael Tilgner is? The link gets me to the EEF homepage, where I can't find anything on his account.
Ciao. Smile
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glyphs and Grammars Part II: Advanced resources
Quote:
... A lot of work was done by Michael Tilgner. ...


THE EEF GUIDE TO INTERNET RESOURCES FOR ANCIENT EGYPTIAN TEXTS
Quote:
... has been collected by Michael Tilgner for the Egyptologists'
Electronic Forum (EEF). ...


E-Journals and Digitized Paper Periodicals (Egyptology)
Quote:
... has been compiled for EEF by Michael Tilgner ...


Digitized Collections of Ancient Egyptian Source Texts
Quote:
... The links were collected by Michael Tilgner for EEF NEWS.


Egyptological Book Series Online
Quote:
... Compiled for the Egyptologists' Electronic Forum by Michael Tilgner ...


Catalogue général des antiquités égyptiennes du Musée du Caire
Quote:
... compiled by Michael Tilgner and ...


Urkunden des aegyptischen Altertums
Quote:
... compiled by Michael Tilgner ...


VIDEO AND AUDIO FILES RELATING TO ANCIENT EGYPT
Quote:
... compiled by Michael Tilgner. ...


Ägyptologie Forum - Michael Tilgner, Scince 07.06.2003 (5922 days), 1205 posts.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Tilgner wrote:
Text on statue Turin 3032
https://www.freeforumzone.com/mobile/discussione.aspx?idd=11647350

Your discussion aroused my interest. BTW, I'm not an egyptologist, but translating Ancient Egyptian texts for many years as a hobby.

The text consist mainly of epithets of Amun-Re

line 2-3

Htp Hr mAa.t
"satisfied about Maat/truth"

Wb III, 188.8 "to be pleased about an utterance/a remark, about the truth or similar"

line 3-4

wa [m] nTr m-Xnw psD.t
"unique [as a] god among the gods"

wa "unique" Wb I, 275.10-14: "noun: the One, the Unique One (of gods, of the King, of nobles or efficient ones); also with n and following noun: 'unique for ...' ..."; however, this seems not fit very well. Perhaps we have to assume n for m as it was usual in Late Egyptian (Wb I, 2 - nä = neuägyptisch = Late Egyptian)

m-Xnw has several meanings, the best one here "among a number of a) persons ... b) things" (Wb III, 371.1Cool

psD.t "Ennead of gods" (Wb I, 559.4 "actually the gods who have been united into a circle/group") - the sign in question is N9 or N10

line 4-5

jr rmT qmA nTr.w
"the one, who made (created) man/mankind, the one, who created the gods"

jrj "create" (Wb I, 108.21 "as an activity of a god")
qmA "create (by gods)" (Wb 5, 34.5-6 [creating] "gods and people"
both are perfective active particles, used as a noun

line 5-6 was already discussed

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Tilgner wrote:
... b) things" ( Wb III, 371.18 ) ...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much! These make much more sense than my translation:
"Who offers according to Maat"
"Who makes people into the appearance of gods"
Ciao. Smile
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