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Who is Nefertiti?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Does anyone know of a genuine basse-classe woman to rise to high prominence? Like a vizier's wife (if we know any), general's wife, queen, ... from which it's certain her parents were mere commoners?


Feels like talking to myself, but I found this one in "Ancient Egypt - A Social History" by Trigger, Kemp, O'Connor and Lloyd:

Quote:
It is, in fact, difficult to discover much at all about the backgrounds of queens. Consequently it is hard to judge how singular is the case of two wives of Pepy I of the Sixth Dynasty, the mothers of the future kings Merenra and Pepy II. Both were daughters of a court lady married to a commoner, Khui. One of their brothers, Djau, became vizier, and one of his sons succeeded to a provincial governorship (...). But whether, as has been claimed, this marked an important historical stage in the weakening of kingship vis-à-vis provincial governors or whether it is merely a well-recorded example of how power was kept out of the hands of princes and courtiers is difficult to tell.
[Pepy I's mother, Iuput, had a statue cult at Coptos, but whether this implies a provincial origin for her is not clear (...).]


I guess there's a precedent. Cool

To conclude: the mother to Pepy I (and of princess Sesh-seshat, the later wife of vizier Mereruka) might be from provincial descent, though it's not sure this means she wasn't noble. She has often been mentioned as the daughter of pharaoh Unas though (the one from the famous Pyramid Texts). Through marriage with her, pharaoh Teti would then have acquired rights to the throne, providing a 'soft' transition between the rules of 5th and 6th dynasty. So that one's quite dubious.

But Pepy I married these two sisters, whose original names are not known to us, but who were both named Ankh-es-en-pepi (later on both were even called Ankh-es-merire after the succeeding king). The first sister was mother to Nemty-em-sa-ef I (Merire I) and the later queen Neith, while the second sister became the mother to Pepy II (who married this Neith, a marriage which brought the next king, Nemty-em-sa-ef II (Merenre II), the husband of the infamous queen Nitocris).

These two sisters would have been daughters to a certain Khui, who TourEgypt says to have been "an influential official (Probably governor of the region) at Abydos". A governor... Not really basse-classe... Don't u sometimes feel the need to yell at Egyptologists to stop contradicting each other? Confused

When I was searching "Khui" on Google I stumbled onto this interesting link:
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=1739
Now why do I often find threads of our own little annie on Google, but never one of my own? I want to be famous too. sad11
Liked it - don't know why - how she started that thread. Cool
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a plain Google-search for "Segereh" and clicked "repeat the search with the omitted results included". Happy now. Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:

When I was searching "Khui" on Google I stumbled onto this interesting link:
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=1739
Now why do I often find threads of our own little annie on Google, but never one of my own? I want to be famous too. sad11
Liked it - don't know why - how she started that thread. Cool


Kinda fun to have your own words quoted back to you, no?

LOL Like the idea of a harem do you?

Have to say it sounds like a strange experience from a woman's point of view.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Annie wrote:
I wonder what it was like to be a wife or concubine in a harem?

Particularly liked that one. Cool
Wanna give it a go?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Annie wrote:
I wonder what it was like to be a wife or concubine in a harem?

Particularly liked that one. Cool
Wanna give it a go?


LOL I'm not good at sharing I'm afraid. Very Happy

I insist on being "sole companion" of the man in my life.
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ZericsKirog
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: Who is Nefertiti? Reply with quote

She is great powder like man... WOW... She is step-mother of Tutankhamun. she is my favorite. My law-of-mother take me make my face. I was shock I am almost look like her. Shocked Very Happy
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Who is Nefertiti? Reply with quote

ZericsKirog wrote:
She is great powder like man... WOW...


We know.
We're quite proud of our Annie. Cool
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure she was referring to Nefertiti my dear Very Happy

Not sure how much power I have here. Titles: yes. Power: no. Laughing

Back to your comments about earlier dynastic royal marriages.
Ankhes-Merire I and II are interesting examples. Then again I don't know if they were of such low birth.
During those times members of the royal family could actually get a job right? Some were architect (Imhotep was thought to be a royal son?), several of the Viziers were royal sons.
So there's even some chance that that family had didtant connections to the royal family.

Second, that was a loooong time before the 18th dynasty. Even if the Ankhes-Merires were non-royal, that really doesn't have much bearing on what happened many centuries later.

It's more useful to examine the royal wives in the 18th dynasty. In the beginning they were all royal princesses by birth.
This does change by the time Thutmosis III comes to power.
He married NEferure, Hatshepsut's daughter.
But his first great royal wife Satiah seems to be the daughter of Ipu, a wetnurse. (no mention of the father to my knowledge).

His main Great Royal Wife and mother to the heir was Meritre(-Hatshepsut), daughter of Huy.

It seems that 3 wives are depicted on a pillar in Tutmosis's tomb: Satiah, Meritre, and and unknown wife named Nebetu.

Meritre is the most prominent wife and mother to the heir, even though Satiah seems to have had a son as well.

Huy, the Royal Mother-in-Law was superior to the harem of Amen, superior of the harem of Re, Divine adoratrice in the temples of Amen and Atum.

So I think that if we look at the immediate prescedents, then Nefertiti may not have been royal but we would expect her parents to have been well connected.

That's why I still think that she may come from the Akhmin family, but from the priestly side. I think she might just be Anen's daughter, and hence a niece of Akhenaten. (Through Tiye's side of the family)
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with u in everything. Confused

I thought the Old Kingdom example wasn't that bad, but indeed, it's a 1000 years away from Nefertiti: no to be underestimated. Smile

And I follow u on a noble - therefor not royal - descent of Nefertiti.
The Akhmim family would be one of the first places to look indeed.
Where did u get Anen as her father? Sounds quite good actually.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
I'm with u in everything. Confused

I thought the Old Kingdom example wasn't that bad, but indeed, it's a 1000 years away from Nefertiti: no to be underestimated. Smile

And I follow u on a noble - therefor not royal - descent of Nefertiti.
The Akhmim family would be one of the first places to look indeed.
Where did u get Anen as her father? Sounds quite good actually.


Anen as her father is my own personal theory. I have never seen it in print. Which surprises me. Anen dies in the 3rd decade of Amenhotep's reign. He could very well have had small daughters who needed to be taken care off. I wondered if Aye and Tiy raised their niece.

Does raise the question if her sister Mutnodjemet was also Anen's daughter, or if she was her foster sister.
Mutnodjemet is never called King's daughter, which would also be nicely explained if she was Aye's niece and foster daughter.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting more intruiged by the second. Smile
What do u know about Anen?
All I know - to my shame - is that he was the brother to Tiye, son Yuya and Tuya.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anen was the Second Prophet of Amen, so a fairly high priestly position.
He seems to have been married to a lady called Huy.
He was buried at Sheik Abd el-Gurna, in Thebes (TT120),and there are excavations going on (Dr Brock I think)

According to Pardo, a statue in Turin gives the follwing titles:
1.    Chancellor of the king of the Lower Egypt  
2.    Sole Companion  
3.    Second Prophet of Amón.  
4.    Noble and hereditary prince  
5.    He who approaches his Great Lord  
6.    loved of the House of the King  
7.    He whose reputation has settled down in Palace  
8.    Father of the God of pure hands  
9.    Lector Priest  
10. Connoisseur (of the ritual) of the Ascent to the Sky (of the king).  
11. Great vidente(?) in the mansion of the prince (or the house of the noble).  
12. Sem Priest of the Heliópolis of the south (On of the south)  
13. The worshipper who arranges the offerings to the House of the Throne (or the House of Isis)  
14. He who calms the Gods with its voice  
15. Loved of the good God.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much is known for certain. He is mentioned on Tuya's sarcophagus as her son. He never claims Queen Tiye as his sister, although she very clearly was his sister.

Pardo mentions that Yuya passed some priestly titles on to Nakhtmin, First prophet of Min, and says that Nakhtmin was the son of Anen.

I wish more info would come out about the inscriptions from Anen's tomb. He probably listed his children at least.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Who is Nefertiti? Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Tey, wife of Aye, was Nefertiti's wet-nurse.

In dynasty 18 titles, the breast is always used as a deferminative, wheter the title applies to a man or a woman (CatharineROEHRIG 1990 The Eighteenth Dynasty titles royal nurse, royal tutor, etc, UofC Berkeley page 314). If, as I believe, Nefertiti was from Mitanni, it make sense for Tey as a nurse (wet or not), to follow her in Egypt, mainly if she is a widow. We do not know when Ay and Tey got married.

As you said for Mutnodjemet, she could be a half-sister, foster-sister but also a cousine. Mutnodjemet could be a daughter of Gilukhepa. The fact that her name is spell differently from one tomb (Parennefer, Panehsy, Maya et Aÿ) to the next is an indication in that direction

The arguments in favor of Nefertiti as daughter's Ay are interresting, but too weaks in the egyptian context to be conclusive.
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