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Who is Kiya?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Kiya, if we see her as Tadukhipa, was probably a young girl in her early teens when she was sent to marry the considerably older (and possibly ill) Nebmaatre Amenhotep III. Of course, Amenhotep wasn't lacking for wives: Tiye, Gilukhipa and his own daughters Sitamun and Isis (possibly Henut-Taneb as well), just to name a few. Amenhotep, however, died shortly after Kiya was sent to Egypt and she would've been passed to his son, the junior Amenhotep, soon to be called Akhenaten. She became Akhenaten's "Greatly Beloved Wife" and her estate was the "House of the Favorite" while the temple u mentioned before was especially built for her (to be usurped by Akhenatens daughter Merit-aton). Now there is mention of deliveries to that 'House of the Favorite' as late as the 16th year of Akhenatens reign. Maybe around that time it was that Kiya might have died, but anyway: I first thought there would be a flaw in chronology, making Tadukhipa Kiya, but around that time she would have been like 30 years old at most... So that seems probable, no?

But why (oh, why) would her name have been changed? I've seen the inscriptions on a kohl tube they found of her, with a reconstruction of her complete titulary and all - www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/amarna/kiya.html. They litteraly write this 'pet name' on official documents too, so I wonder if they did 'Egyptianize' Gilukhipa's name as well. If they did, the relation between Tadukhipa and Kiya would surely become more than a suspected one, since then it has a precedent, no?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad my tripod-picture didn't last, was quite an original sight (Kiya made eyeless).
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Fragment with full name and title of the queen (British Museum):
(...)y Aten nesoet bity: this is litteraly a female version of 'nesoe bity', 'King of North and South'. The link in my previous message should've been http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/amarna/kiya.html
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiya is an interesting person.

There is an Amarna letter that refers to Tadukhipa after the death of Amenhotep III. I don't know how certain experts are about the Tadukhipa=Kiya question. I have read that some think Tadukhipa may have sounded more like Tadu-kiya, and hence Kiya is an obvious abbreviation. The use of short forms of names was fairly prevalent among Egyptians. Tiye, short for Nefertari, etc.

I believe C. Aldred at some point suggested that Kiya may have belonged to the Akhmin Clan. I don't think there's any evidence for that however.

The renaming is not that strange. Ramses II's Hittite bride was given the name Maathorneferure. I don't think anyone knows what her original name was.
It does make one wonder what happened to Ghilukhepa.

It seems that whoever is buried in KV55 (probably Smenkhare) ended up with most of Kiya's funeral equipment. The sarcophagus is thought to have originally have been hers as well. That always puzzled me.
If someone else is using her sarcophagus and canopic jars, what was used for her burial? If she owned 2 sets of burial equipment, what does that say about her importance?

It seems that Tutankamen claims that his mother's name was Meritra on a block. (Can't remember if it's from Heliopolis or Hermopolis.)
I think this is why some have claimed Merit-Aten, after the Aten period renamed Merit-Ra, was his mother.

Kiya was undoubtably important. She was the only wife besides Nefertiti who had her own temple. She had rather extensive funeral equipment, which was unheard of for minor wives. So she can't have been too minor a wife.

Some think that Nefertiti disappeared from the scene in year 12. You said that Kiya's estates were still producing wine in year 16. Did she temporarily replace Nefertiti, until Nefertiti's daughters were old enough and retook their place as leading royal females?

Thhis then of course leads to the question of what happened to Nefertiti. Was she coregent?, Did she take the ultimate step and make herself pharaoh? Did she die?

This is why this is referred to as "the Amarna Tar pits" Laughing

All these questions, a couple of tantalizing clues, but not enough to answer the questions definitively.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That carved face on the canoptic lid is just amazing, what a feat of craftsmanship.
Thats a good point about whether or not Gilukhipa's name was changed. I've not yet read of a pet name for her - maybe she wasn't so belovable as Kiya Evil or Very Mad Another pet name : I've read of Tuya as a pet name of Ahhotep.
In a Amarna letter from Tushratta to Amenhotep III, Tadhukipa is referred to as Tadu-Heba. This is written in Akkadian.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
That carved face on the canoptic lid is just amazing, what a feat of craftsmanship.
Thats a good point about whether or not Gilukhipa's name was changed. I've not yet read of a pet name for her - maybe she wasn't so belovable as Kiya Evil or Very Mad Another pet name : I've read of Tuya as a pet name of Ahhotep.
In a Amarna letter from Tushratta to Amenhotep III, Tadhukipa is referred to as Tadu-Heba. This is written in Akkadian.


There are also these clay "masks" they found in Amarna. They depict several of the members of the royal family, and there are several portraits they don't know the identity of. There's one of a young woman with a sound face and big earrings that is usually thought to be Kiya.

There's still qute a bit of debate I thought about who is depicted on the canopic jar lid. I thought it is even thought possible that there may be as many as 3 different people depicted. Or has this somehow been sorted out?

Yeah, the Tadu-heba kinda undercuts the "Kiya short for Tadukhipa" theory. It could still be a pet name though.
It doesn't sound like an Egyptian name though. And I have never heard of any other woman with that name. There is a Hyksos ruler Khyan, but that superficial resembleance is probably just that: superficial resemblance Laughing
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, the Tadu-heba kinda undercuts the "Kiya short for Tadukhipa" theory. It could still be a pet name though.

I think so too. And it could be that Kiya is an unusual name in Egypt if it were a pet form of Tadukhipa - a Mitanni name.

Quote:
I thought it is even thought possible that there may be as many as 3 different people depicted

Yeah I've seen Meritaten also accredited with being a face - I've not heard if its been sorted either, if it can in fact be sorted.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It seems that whoever is buried in KV55 (probably Smenkhare) ended up with most of Kiya's funeral equipment. The sarcophagus is thought to have originally have been hers as well. That always puzzled me. If someone else is using her sarcophagus and canopic jars, what was used for her burial? If she owned 2 sets of burial equipment, what does that say about her importance?


Not a lot is known about Smenchkare, but what I find striking is that most listings of dynasties don't even mention him. I'll start a new discussion on him a bit later, okidoki? Cool So we won't get that mixed up with this thread... I had a thought on the canope-"recycling". It was rather common that sarcophagi could be re-used by other royals, it actually happened a lot during Lybian, Saïte and Ramesside dynasties: I'll make up a list (again) later. But what I wonder about, is this: could this one have been different? I mean, the canopes are made in late-amarna style, so they're pretty "individual". I was thinking that maybe Smenchkare looked enough like Kiya to make the usurpation of the canopes less absurd. Why else, if not for the maybe similar looks between Kiya and Smenchie, would a male royal, probably even a pharao, take the canopes of a woman? I'm just thinking out loud, insinuating a family link between Smench and Kiya. You're free to hop on it like a bunch of hungry crocodiles, all together kept in a 6m³ cage with nothing but the bars to chew on.

On the second thing: who says Kiya had a second burial outfit? This actually sounds quite disrespectful, but since she was linked to Akhenaten that closely and as a (maybe even foreign) princess couldn't count on the same 'divine respect' a pharao - like even Smenchkare - got, it's probable her mummy didn't survive very long...
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
...But what I wonder about, is this: could this one have been different? I mean, the canopes are made in late-amarna style, so they're pretty "individual". I was thinking that maybe Smenchkare looked enough like Kiya to make the usurpation of the canopes less absurd. Why else, if not for the maybe similar looks between Kiya and Smenchie, would a male royal, probably even a pharao, take the canopes of a woman? I'm just thinking out loud, insinuating a family link between Smench and Kiya.

Kiya has been suggested as the mother to both Smenkhare and Tutankhamen. If she gave birth to S. , wouldn't that count against her being a Mitanni Princess? Just thinking about the time line here.

Then again, if she were Egyptian, she could have been S's sister Cool
There's just not enough info to make a determination I think.

There's the initial report that the mummy in KV55 was buried in the royal female pose (left arm bent and clasping some object).
This is (I think) rather a fringe idea, but it has been theorized that the mummy IS that of Kiya. She would have had to be a short woman in her early twenties with some masculin traits if that is true.

Segereh wrote:
You're free to hop on it like a bunch of hungry crocodiles, all together kept in a 6m³ cage with nothing but the bars to chew on.

Lovely image..... Shocked

Segereh wrote:

On the second thing: who says Kiya had a second burial outfit? This actually sounds quite disrespectful, but since she was linked to Akhenaten that closely and as a (maybe even foreign) princess couldn't count on the same 'divine respect' a pharao - like even Smenchkare - got, it's probable her mummy didn't survive very long...

That was my comment, and pure speculation Cool
My reasoning was, that in order for her sarcophagus to be reused there must have either been another one used for her (or her body was destroyed at some point - and not long after death either!)
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the beginning u were good, in the end u were brilliant... Cool
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ancienthistory_class
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to our kknowlege she was askhenatens lesser wife. the Russian egyptoligist iurri perepelkin argues that sge was smenkare.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ancienthistory_class wrote:
to our kknowlege she was askhenatens lesser wife. the Russian egyptoligist iurri perepelkin argues that sge was smenkare.


Yes, Kiya was definitely Akhenaten's lesser wife. It also seems clear that she had at least one daughter.

I have heard of theories claiming that Kiya tried to grab power at some point. I don't know what that theory is based on though.
I read once that Kiya may have made a grab for power.

I had never heard of Kiya as Smenkhare though.
I thought that the excision of Kiya from her monuments somehow took place before the rise of Smenkhare.

If she was somehow involved in a harem revolt however, that would expain the total erasure of her name from the monuments. But that is all speculation. I have not seen any evidence to support that theory.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the Smenchkare-Kiya confusion would come from the usurpation of Kiya's funerary goods by or for Smenchkare. Haven't heard of an actual proposition to put them on a par though.
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