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Nefertiti, Smenkhare or both?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, ever saw "The Man who would be King"?
Your description made me think of it. Nice film. Smile
(Shhean Connery and My Cocaine played in it.)
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a feeling that we wouldn't keep it serious for much longer Laughing

"My cocaine"? LOL Assume you mean Michael Caine?
I really like him as an actor.

Back to Nefertiti:
Never liked the tendency to depict her as this powerful Amazon type / power crazy woman. I think her life must have been incredible even without fiction that's sometimes heaped on her memory.
But that's just my perspective on the whole deal.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes amazing lives get less amazing by the rubbish that people say about it.
That's my idea. If someone's overenthousiastic about something, isn't your first reflex to go sceptic?
Really a pitty. Smile
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Nejemib
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too think that Nefertiti was a co-regent with Akhenaten, it would explain the disappearance of "Queen" Nefertiti around year 12, however, in the grafitti in the tomb of Pere at Thebes, the king who is named is the one listed as "Beloved of Aten" and "Neferneferuaten, Beloved of Waenre" names that are never associated with the name Smenkhkare. So it would seem that Nefertiti is the one who is attested to as attaining a year 3. In the same inscription, this Neferneferuaten is also attested to as having a "Temple of Amun in the House of Ankhkheperure in Thebes" Is it possible Nefertiti was the one who made the first steps in the return to orthodoxy? There is a fragmentary stela that was found at Amarna, known un-oficcialy as the "Co-Regency Stela" which was actually recarved, with the original inscriptions still legible...it reads
"ORIGINALLY:
Lord of the Two Lands, Neferkheperure-Waenre, Lord of Crowns, Akhenaten, given life, great in the duration of his life.
Great King's Wife, Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti, may she live forever continually.
Born to the King's Chief Wife, Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti, may she live forever, the King's bodily daughter, his beloved, Meritaten, may she live forever."

RECARVED AS:
Lord of the Two Lands, Neferkheperure-Waenre, Lord of Crowns, Akhenaten, given life, great in the duration of his life.
The Lord who Performs the Ritual, Ankhkheperure Beloved of Waenre, Unique Lord, Neferneferuaten Beloved of Akhenaten, given life forever, continually.
Kings bodily daughter, his beloved, Ankhesenpaaten."

This part is PURE specualtion, and not scientific at all Wink ...but is it possible that Nefertiti was appointed as co-regent, as co-pharaoh, in order to "perform the ritual" of state for an ailing Akhenaten, or in order to begin the return to Amun hinted at by the Theban grafitto, by building a Temple of Amun in the House of Ankhkheperure in Thebes. The title "House of...a specific pharaoh" usually denoted a mortuary temple built on the western bank of Thebes. Is this where the obviously traditional, Osirian, burial equipment later re-used by Tut came from? It is possible that once she made these advances, by year 3 or so, Nefertiti died, with the male Smenkhkare assuming some of her titles, as well as her throne name, without the obvious references to Akhenaten, in order to ease his ascension and his assumption of power? I would also lean towards a male Smenkhkare, as this would help explain the bones of the young man found in KV 55, but it seems that before him, the throne might have been held, however briefly, by Nefertiti.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nejemib wrote:

This part is PURE specualtion, and not scientific at all Wink ...but is it possible that Nefertiti was appointed as co-regent, as co-pharaoh, in order to "perform the ritual" of state for an ailing Akhenaten, or in order to begin the return to Amun hinted at by the Theban grafitto, by building a Temple of Amun in the House of Ankhkheperure in Thebes. The title "House of...a specific pharaoh" usually denoted a mortuary temple built on the western bank of Thebes. Is this where the obviously traditional, Osirian, burial equipment later re-used by Tut came from? It is possible that once she made these advances, by year 3 or so, Nefertiti died, with the male Smenkhkare assuming some of her titles, as well as her throne name, without the obvious references to Akhenaten, in order to ease his ascension and his assumption of power? I would also lean towards a male Smenkhkare, as this would help explain the bones of the young man found in KV 55, but it seems that before him, the throne might have been held, however briefly, by Nefertiti.


That sounds plausible actually. The two youngest daughters of Nefertiti and Akkhenaten had "re" names (Neferneferure, Setepenre)

Maybe another sign of a return to orthodoxy under Nefertiti's co-regency???? Might also explain her disappearance Cool
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nejemib wrote:
I too think that Nefertiti was a co-regent with Akhenaten, it would explain the disappearance of "Queen" Nefertiti around year 12, however, in the grafitti in the tomb of Pere at Thebes, the king who is named is the one listed as "Beloved of Aten" and "Neferneferuaten, Beloved of Waenre" names that are never associated with the name Smenkhkare. So it would seem that Nefertiti is the one who is attested to as attaining a year 3.

I don't think Nefertiti-becoming-Neferneferuaten is the reason for the "disappearance" actually. In that case, when we have "so much" of Nefertiti, why so little of Neferneferuaten? I think both "died at the same time" and both names were used at the same time. Would that be impossible? I know we have little evidence of such a thing regarding pharaohs, but then again they didn't change their prenomen like Nefertiti did if she was Neferneferuaten, did they? It's hard to put data on when exactly these scarabs of Ankhet-kheperu-Re were made, it's equally hard to put data on Pere: all we actually know is that there was a third year of this Ankhet-kheperu-Re then, but not exactly when, no?

Nej wrote:
In the same inscription, this Neferneferuaten is also attested to as having a "Temple of Amun in the House of Ankhkheperure in Thebes" Is it possible Nefertiti was the one who made the first steps in the return to orthodoxy? There is a fragmentary stela that was found at Amarna, known un-oficcialy as the "Co-Regency Stela" which was actually recarved, with the original inscriptions still legible...

What about Tut and Ankhes only changing their -aten names in the 2nd year of his reign?
And the move to Memphis around the same date?
That makes for a restauration of over 5 years...
I think it's a stretch, but then again...
What to do with the "Amun temple"...

So basically u're suggesting a very brief reign of Nefertiti as well?
That is, after the co-regency?
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Serenity78
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
One interesting inscription is one of Smenkhare and Meritaten


According to Aldred's book Newberry identified this carved and painted slab as representing Smenkhare and his first royal consort Meritaten. This identification seems to have been accepted ever since.

My question is: How do we know this could not be Tutankhamen and Ankhesenamen? Newberry new of their existence, why did he lean towards the Smenkhare/Meritaten identification?


I heard that that picture was Tut anyway because of the cane and him having scoliosis or something like that. Apparetly he had it bad enough that it made him very vulnerable because he had to turn his entire body in order to look behind him. That and he had multiple walking sticks in his tomb I've heard.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a popular theory apparently...
But wait, we're judging by depictions, right?
Tut is shown in a chariot, smiting Asiatics.
No hurting leg, certainly no cane...
True or false? Smile

I know it's not the same thing, but still, judging from a depiction is rock-paper-scissors a lot of the time.
Meaning it can go out all ways... Rolling Eyes

And about the found canes...
We couldn't compare what's in Tut's tomb with someone else's.
So frankly, how much of a standard is Tut's tomb (not)?
Maybe the canes were a custom "gift"?
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