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Paddy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:


I have the Dutch translations of Jacq, and can’t find grammatical errors. He reads quite easy. Perhaps the France language, especially in literature, is more difficult to translate to English?. Or they just made a bad translation.


Well the thing is, Jacq has a pretty typical "French" style of writing, which is; short dialogues, lots of stylistic phrase structures and such that would make an English translation pretty awkward, since an enjoyable and "challenging" english piece of writing will most likely have long phrases, long descriptions, and different overall qualities.
Something like;
"You're called Iker?"
"That's my name."
"Where were you born?"
"Medamoud."
"And from whence do you come?"
"The city of Thoth."
"Do you recognize this?" (p.310, Les Mystčres d'Osiris, quickly translated)
seems to be a pretty shabby attempt of dialog in English. Very easy to read indeed; all the dialogs and the descriptions are often constructed like that throughout his books- short, brisk phrases. But in French, since it always takes a pretty long while to say something if you let yourself go using all the stylistic devices and showy periphrases, this sort of snappy dialog gives rhythm to the text. I for one write lots of English fiction, so when I moved to France and was forced to write in French, I just could not keep the same "flowery" descriptive style that English looks good in. If you're Proust, then descriptive French works - yet is utterly unreadable - but otherwise, you have to stick to not-overly-descriptive, short but elegant prose to keep your reader interested.
That's probably why Jacq isn't as enjoyable to read in English- it just feels shabby, in my opinion, and sometimes a bit silly, though in French such style is enjoyable. Sometimes the style is the problem - other times, it's the language itself that brings down certain subjects. That's the problem, for example, of french fantasy work - the French can't write good Tolkien-ish fantasy to save their lives, because the language just doesn't suit the fantasy 'mood'. It just makes fantasy sound childish - anything from Harry Potter to LOTR, passing through Narnia and Golden Compass and others of the sort - unfortunately sound very retarded in French. If you're feeling particularly masochistic, try watch The Lord of the Rings in French! Rolling Eyes It sounds better even in Japanese, for Christ's sake. The French themselves aren't even interested in fantasy because of that - except the decadent fantasy like vampires and gothic novels, because decadence is something the French language suits very well. ^^

I don't know how Jacq comes across in Dutch - I don't really know much about the Dutch writing style Very Happy I don't think they made a "bad" translation. Just that, his kind of prose doesn't translate well - they have to stay very true to the writing and I know I'd be tempted to link many of his short phrases together to make his writing a bit more wholesome in english. I find that Haruki Murakami doesn't translate well in English either, though in French the translations are marvelous - it all boils down to 'compatibility' between languages and styles, I think.

And, NefertariMut - I agree that both authors are very very different! I prefer Gedge too, actually, perhaps because I prefer being able to relate to and love the characters rather than being steeped in endless and meticulous knowledge of Egypt. ^^ (I laughed aloud when Jacq described the different chemicals that a completely insignificant character used for his cosmetics shop for a whole page and a half - "Look, look, I even know what powders go together!" Granted, he's an egyptologist, but sometimes he detracts a bit too far from the story and writes whole pages that don't really enhance the story. I love the details, don't get me wrong - but when it has nothing to do with the story/characters and slows the pace down, it's a little exhausting.)
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Ranoferhotep
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know how Jacq comes across in Dutch - I don't really know much about the Dutch writing style


Thanks for that extensive explanation. I guess every language has its peculiarities. I’ve never read Jacq in French, so can’t make a comparison.
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Meritamon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody needed to revive this.


I'm re-reading The Mask of Ra by P.C. Doherty
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daily Life of the Nubians by Robert Bianchi.
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Meritamon
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People of the Pharaohs by Hilary Wilson.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kingdom of Kush: Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization by László Török.

Personally scanned from a local University library. I'm a cheap chap. Embarassed
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Meritamon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secrets of the Sands- The Revelations of Egypt's Everlasting Oasis by Harry Thurston. It's more pre-history than ancient, but still rather interesting.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just finished reading the thesis "The iconography of humiliation: The depiction and treatment of bound foreigners in New Kingdom Egypt" by Mark Jazen.

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To make a swift summary (especially the beginning as I started the paper months ago), it attempts to demonstrate that the academicians are too subjective in regards their views of Egypt as a civilized nation incapable of atrocities (except during the proto-dynastic period). Given the war iconography seemingly reports paradigmatic and stereotypical sceneries like the "Smiting Scene", "Battle Scenes" and the omnipresent "Bounded Foes", it was mostly discarded for being anhistorical, thus a fool's errand to extract any pertinent information other than the ideological view of kingship's necessity to shoo away forces of chaos. Through a long introductory presentation of different vectors of such iconography (bounded enemies on thrones, the bases of statues, under royal sandals, on the head of a walking stick, etc./ special missed details about Battle Scenes and Smiting Scenes), he draws several interesting conclusions indicating its higher historical value than formerly assumed by the scholarly community. He ends his paper by comparing the very value of "Celebration over the foreign vanquished" in contemporaneous civilizations such as Assyria, Rome and several Native American Early Nations to make a parallel with the iconography of Egypt and demonstrating that Egypt, despite its personal artistic sensibilities and vague presentation of brutal acts, is as much of a brutal ancient civilization as coeval "civilized" monarchies.


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However, still stagnant about "The Kingdom of Kush: Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization by László Török. " because I went too hard into Assyrian epigraphy related to the period of SargonII+Sennacherib+Esarhaddon+Assurbanipal.

"The Mechanics of Ancient. Egyptian Magical Practice by. R. Ritner." also remained stagnant at ~60% read as I peruse carefully his reasonings (not always readily accessible for a non-expert). Nonetheless, one of the greatest dissertations to quite get into the Egyptian mindset. I really liked his long reasonings about Mirgissa's deposits proving at the end that a simply overturned skull (seemingly bearing physionomy of a Nubian) represents not only a ritual killing (a.k.a. sacrifice), but all the collateral symbolic meanings such as presence of wax, overturning (leading to a change of bodily functions such as expelling excrements from the mouth) is one evil that can be retraced as early as the Pyramid Texts, etc. A book with every proposed assertion carefully referenced and demonstrated.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I went too hard into Assyrian epigraphy related to the period of SargonII+Sennacherib+Esarhaddon+Assurbanipal


Forgot to add "related to Egypt".
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Iker
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will read it when I get the chance but the abstract doesn't excite.

"Lastly, why have Egyptologists been so reluctant to study this material?"
He is following in the footsteps of Toby Wilkinson who thinks Egyptologists view Ancient Egypt through rose tinted lenses, but smiting scenes etc. have been covered by Egytologists from early days, e.g Budge, Erman and in recent works such as "The Narmer Palette: A New Interpretation" by David O'Conner who alludes to solar symbolism in these scenes that appeared throughout A.E history.

"Some captives, particularly enemy leaders, were publicly executed as important components to Egyptian ritual or state ceremonies and celebrations."
Do executions in the USA no longer have a public component? The presence of clergy at executions was once commonplace and no more so when the execution was a result of heresy. It was only in comparatively modern times that such executions ended in Christian countries.

I think most modern scholars would hesitate before jumping in with both feet and standing in judgment over an ancient civilization as they do not wish to be seen as blind to what has happened in their own cultures.

There was no United Nations, no universal charter of human rights, no International Court of Justice. Emerging civilzations appeared in a dog-eat-dog world. (I sometimes wonder if the more pacifistic wisdom texts such as Amenemope contributed to the decline of A.E in contrast to the more assertive stance that evicted the Hyksos and led to empire).

I wonder what ancient cultures who valued fertility, children as being gifts from the god(s) would think of the number of abortions that take place in the West? Maybe when they look at dropping atomic bombs on cities they would wonder why we think so highly of ourselves.

Maybe the thesis is a good read but as I said the abstract doesn't thrill me.
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tripnfelt
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Deutsch book? Reply with quote

What's a good book recommended for a complete beginner deutsch learner on any subject AE related? (A kids book would be fine) I hope to be able to use the wörterbuch der aegyptischen with ease and read AE research, journals and books in deutsch by the time I finish my studies but need to begin at the beginning ^___^. Thanks!
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Iker
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Deutsch book? Reply with quote

tripnfelt wrote:
What's a good book recommended for a complete beginner deutsch learner on any subject AE related? (A kids book would be fine) I hope to be able to use the wörterbuch der aegyptischen with ease and read AE research, journals and books in deutsch by the time I finish my studies but need to begin at the beginning ^___^. Thanks!


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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Desert God by Wilbur Smith Reply with quote

Like the other books in the series it's a completely ahistorical romp but a fun one.

Admittedly, while my left brain was enjoying the antics of Smith's hero, the castrated genius, Taita, my right brain was screaming things like "there were no domesticated camels in the 17th dynasty" or "they're riding horses--with stirrups?". Smith's depiction of Minoan Crete as a colorless Taliban like society which repressed women pretty much flies in the face of the evidence about that culture but on the other hand Taita's battle with a giant aurochs bull which offends the gods couldn't have happened any where else so I'll forgive it.

As long as you can keep your outraged right brain under wraps, Desert Godis an entertaining and fast moving yarn. [/i]
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Desert God by Wilbur Smith Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
... "there were no domesticated camels in the 17th dynasty" ...

Surprisingly, over and over again to be read also in the scientific literature, but still wrong. See for example...

Dale J. Osborn / Jana Osbornova : The Mammals of Ancient Egypt. - [The Natural History of Egypt 4]. - Warminster : Aris & Phillips, 1998. - ISBN : 0856685109; 0856685224. - IX, 213 p., ills. On page 156 :



Greetings, Lutz.
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Meritamon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reading a few Akhenaten related books...

Akhenaten Dweller in Truth by Naguib Mahfouz
Akhenaten and the Religion of Light by Erik Hornung
Pillar of Fire by Judith Tarr
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