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What about Akhenaten's grand-children?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: What about Akhenaten's grand-children? Reply with quote

Smartie wrote:
Quote:
Smartie
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:40 am    Post subject:
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<snip>
But, what of Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit? the daughter of Ankhesenpaaten? I know it's known that she and Meritaten had daughters (by there fathers) what of these girls? is there any other known children/grand children of Akhenaten? Also didn't Mekaten die in child birth? could this child have been Tut? could the father have been Smenkhare? oh...so many questions and no answers.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that there is some serious question about the identity and family connection of Ankhesenpaaten-tasherit and Meritaten-tasherit.

Dodson and Hilton (pg 154):
Ankhesenpaaten-tasherit: Perhaps a daughter of Akhenaten and Kiya or Smenkhare and Meryetaten. Named on blocks from Hermopolis, originally deriving from Amarna.

Meryetaten-tasherit: Perhaps a daughter of Akhenaten and Kiya or Smenkhare and Meryetaten. Named on blocks from Hermopolis, originally deriving from Amarna.

They appear on blocks that were usurped from Kiya. This makes some think that they were daughters of Kiya, not the royal princesses.

Murnane has translations of the inscriptions about these little girls:
A block from the Maru-Aten: [King's Bodily daughter, his beloved, Meretaten] Junior, (who belongs) to the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, who lives [on Maat, Lord of the Two LAnds Neferkheperure-Waenre, born to the king's bodily daughter, his] beloved (?), Meretaten, may she live.

Murnane mentions that this inscription is usurped from Kiya's daughter.

A similar block with the name of Ankhesenpaaten-tasherit was usurped from a monument of Kiya.

So it's likely that the two girls were daughters of Kiya.

I'm not sure what the latest thoughts about Meketaten's death are. I thought they had discarded the idea that she died in child-birth? And that the small child shown in the scene may be Tut, but that this is far from certain.

For as far as I know nothing is known about the fate of Ankhesenpaaten-tasherit and Meyetaten-tasherit. They are depicted as small girls not babies I think, so they must have survived until they were at least toddlers?


I have even seen speculation that is was actually Ankhesenpaaten-tasherit who was married off to Tutankhamen. But I have never seen a shred of evidence for that theory Very Happy She would have been a little more age appropriate maybe.

I don't know of any other children or grand-children of Akhenaten besides the 6 by Nefertiti and the daughter(s) he had with Kiya.

He must have had a harem, just like the other kings, so there must have been quite few kids.

About Smenkhare being the father of Tutankhamen:
That has been proposed by Dennis Forbes Very Happy
The article is here:
http://www.egyptology.com/kmt/fall97/endpaper.html

You will enjoy it I think.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps one ended up being buried in the last unopened baby coffin in KV63 Cool

It is an interesting thought as to what happened to any other surviving excess royals. Just melted into the background?
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ELISE
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presumably by the time Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten were old enough to bear children we would have reached the later part of Akhenatens reign - when daughters were more usually being named with 're' endings.

Also, since Ankhesenpaaten eventually changed her name to Ankhesenamen, it seem highly unlikely that any daughter she had with Tutankhamen would have had an 'aten' name. So he's almost certainly not the father.

Although there is no conclusive proof, the choice of names does perhaps suggest the earlier years of Akhenatens reign and therefore probably not one of his own daughters as the mother (certainly in the case of Ankhesenpaaten tasherit anyway). .
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://history.memphis.edu/murnane/Allen%20-%20Amarna%20Succession.pdf

In this article J.Allen explains who the parents of Meritaten-jr and Ankhesenpaaten-jr are : Akhenaten and Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten.
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the first menstrual age Aylward BLACKMAN in Gods, Priests and Men, Kegan page 156 wrote :"....the case of girls of the Thebaid, Legrain says, occur at the age of nine.

The N.Bonaparte team in Description de l'Egypte Tome 18-1 p.53, wrote : «les femmes se marient à 12 ans; …. on prétend qu'elles sont nubiles à 10/11 ans.».

Akhenaten, Meketaten and Meritaten were old enough to have a child with their father.
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ELISE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but you've missed the point about the names.

By the time the daughters were themselves old enough to have children, 'aten' name forms were not being used- look at the three younger girls as evidence - they all have the suffix 're'.

Ankhesenpaaten may have been born as late as year 6. Add your nine or ten years minimum to that and you are right at the end of Akhenatens reign. If she had a child in year 16/17 I don't see that it would have been called anything 'aten'. The naming suggests the tasherits were probably born earlier in the reign - when Meritaten and Co were still too young to be the parents. Even if you subscribe to the theory Meritaten may have been born while Akhenaten was crown prince....

I think Kiya is a more likely candidate, and one could even see the naming as an attempt to curry some favour with the Royal family..... quite sad really....
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ELISE wrote:
look at the three younger girls as evidence - they all have the suffix 're'.
Ankhesenpaaten may have been born as late as year 6. Add your nine or ten years minimum to that and you are right at the end of Akhenatens reign. If she had a child in year 16/17 I don't see that it would have been called anything 'aten'.

You mean the last two daughters.
Ankhesenpaaten may have been born as early as year 4.
Tutankhaten who was born after the six daughter has Aten in his name.
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the book from John COONEY Amarna Reliefs from Hermopolis in American, page 19 there is a block with a short text ‘The nurse of Princess Ankhesenpaaten’ The nurse is not visible, but Ankesenpaaten is written with the determative B7 (queen name). The block shows Ankesenpaaten with the well known Amarna Princess wig and a part of Akhenaten. In the Amarna tombs her name is never written with this determinative AFAIK, therefore this mean IMO that her status has changed: she is a wife of her father. Being already a daughter of the king, to be a wife does not need to be spell out..... and the space was not there for an additional word.

Meritaten on the Amana letters is seen more as a wife than a daughter of Akhenaten, guess why.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might find this site interesting:
http://ankhesenpaaten.area51.ipupdater.com/
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ELISE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard wrote:
Ankhesenpaaten may have been born as early as year 4. .


Exactly - we don't the specific date. But the salient point is by the time she could have children (by your own reckoning an absolute minimum of 9-10 years later) we are talking about her giving birth in year 14 at the very earliest. That's a good three years after Setepenre came on the scene (allowing for the fact she appeared in the year 12 depictions) and possibly as much as eight or nine years after the fourth daughter got her 're' name - I think it unlikely an atenist name form would have been given to a new born at that late stage. Doesn't mean it definitely didn't happen but (to me) common sense says it's not the most likely scenario.

Not sure what your point is about the daughters renaming themselves (ie Ankhesenpaaten to Ankhesenamun). Coming to power/relocating to Thebes seems to be a good timepoint to do this - but it doesn't have to mean any newborns must have had atenist name forms right up to this point. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.....

Gerard wrote:


Tutankhaten who was born after the six daughter has Aten in his name.


What is your evidence for this? If he died circa age 20 that means he came to power around 10-11 and was 7 or 8 at least when Akhenaten died in year 17 (allowing Smenkhare et al a very generous 3 full years). So he would have been born year 9 at the latest - quite possibly earlier if Smenkhkare/Nefenefruaten were co-regencies rather than indendant rule.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this ... Very Happy
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ELISE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
You might find this site interesting:
http://ankhesenpaaten.area51.ipupdater.com/


I'd love to know how they can be so sure she was a) Ankhesenpaaten tasherits mother and b) 12 years old at the time of the birth.

Perhaps they can tell us who Smenkhkare was for their next trick! Very Happy Evil or Very Mad
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ELISE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ps Does anyone know if I can change my 'name' so it isn't in block capitals (without actually re-registering) - it looks all shouty like that!
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ELISE wrote:
What is your evidence for this? If he died circa age 20
J.Allen p.6 gives 19 years old at max. IMO the last two daughters of Akhenaton were at least 4 years old to participate at the Durbar of year 12. Before that age it is hardly possible to have a child to follow orders. This is my evidence.
Where did you get the idea there was a ban on Aten-based name for new born when Akhenaton was alive? Meryetaten-jr and Ankhesenpaaten-jr received their name from their mothers. See J.Allen why they cannot be Kiya'daughters.

In Room Gamma we see Meritaten nursing a child, how come she can have milk if she has no child ? On the child she hold I disagree with Allen IMO it is Meketaten's child. My reasoning is the following : A child receives his name from his mother, but what happen if the mother died in childbirth. Well, for a while the child must be without a name. I believe this is what the reliefs of rooms alpha & gamma want to tell us. The two children have no name because their mother died in labor. A difference between Rooms Alpha and Gamma is the number of ladies carrying a fan behind the nurse and the child. In room Alpha there is only one fan for the child who is royal and none for the nurse who is not even named. In room Gamma there are two fans, nurse and child being royal. I believe Meritaten is nursing her sister's child because this one need it as
soon he is born otherwise he may died too, Meritaten being already a mother, and probably around when her sister was in labor, was able to help in this task which took the royal familly by surprise.
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ELISE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said there was a 'ban' on Atenist name forms - I simply pointed out that it doesn't seem to have been fashionable to use them after the birth of Ankhesenpaaten.

Also, someone writing a blog or putting together a website saying 'so and so is so and so's daughter/son/husband wife' doesn't make it fact! There needs to be some evidence. For example you state that 'In room Gamma, Meritaten is nursing a child' - how do you know it's her!!!!? 'or that 'Meryetaten-jr and Ankhesenpaaten-jr received their name from their mothers' - that's one possible explanation - it's not the only one though.

It's my firm belief that people should provide evidence for their claims And if there is no evidence, then it should be made clear that it's a personal theory by using phrases such as 'it's possible that...' or 'it may be that....' Nothing wrong with that - we all do it on here and it's fun - but there needs to be a clear distinction between suggesting a explanation for something and reporting it as though it's established fact - that weblink is a great example of someone stating unproven facts as if they were undisputed.

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's the scientist coming out in me - we are taught never to make a claim without backing it with evidence, or making it clear that a hunch or a feeling is exactly that and nothing more.

BTW I think your suggestion about the fans (ie two fans for two royals and one fan for one royal is a really nice observation) - but it doesn't prove it's Meritaten - see what I mean? Laughing
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