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Horemheb
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferuaten wrote:

It had nothing to do with sugar, it was because of the bread they ate.

Well, probably a combination of both. If you're referring to the grinding of the flour leaving particles of sand in the flour then that would grind down your teeth and cause problems that way. But sugar really worsens that situation.


Neferuaten wrote:
BTW isn't Amenia's name coming from "Amun"? Pretty unusual name in the Amarna age I guess. Is it possible that if she was ever mentioned in Amarna, it was under a different name?

It's not sure what Horemheb's name was in Amarna times though.
There's a tomb of a man called Paatenemheb, who may fit the bill. I have no idea if he had a wife, and if so what her name would be.

Amenia was a songstress of Amun. Does make one wonder what she did during the Amarna period.

Neferuaten wrote:
And has Mutnodjmet ever been called a "King's Daughter" or only "King's Wife"?

On the Saqqara Online website of Leiden University they have "Great King's Wife" as the only title for Mutnodjmet.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back to Horemheb's origins. Some have wondered of Paatenemheb should be identified with Horemheb.

This man was Royal scribe, General of the Lord of the Two Land, Overseer of the works in Akhetaten, Steward

It seems to me that Horemheb was at courth during the Amarna age. The titles of General, Overseer and Steward seem to match nicely with what we would expect from him.

Does anyone know more about this person? Paatenemheb had tomb 24 carved for himself in Amarna. Anyone ever heard of relatives of this person? Name of wife? Would be interesting if it was cose to Amenia, but I would be somewhat surprised.

(LOL If we "atenize" that name we would get "Atenia". Yeah I know I'm easily amused.)
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This Paatenemheb is often referred to as a 'royal butler' to Tutanchamon as well, quite a strange title to me. Seems weird that Horemheb would've kept his Aton-name very long though.

Anyway, If we look at the persons who the graves of Amarna are intended for, it makes sense to equate Pa-aten-em-heb to Hor-em-heb. These tombs were reserved for the main figures behind the power of Egypt in the (late) days of Ache and during the rule of Tut. Grave 24 was for this Pa-aten-em-heb, like grave nr. 25 was meant for Aye and another one was begun for the treasurer Maya.

All these people made secondary or even tertiary tombs though, which makes me believe there wasn't a lot of people actually getting buried in Amarna.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I think that equating Paatenemheb with Horemheb seems reasonble. I wish more was known about the inscriptions in the tomb.

I had heard of the "butler" title. That seems strange to me as well. I have never heard of "butler". Do they mean steward?

For as far as I know there are only a handful of people ever interred at Amarna: Akhenaten, Nefertiti, Meketaten, Neferuaten-Tasherit, and maybe Kiya.

There's one noble who may have been buried there as well, but I can't remember his name. I wonder if his family later reburied him?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was thinking about 'reburials' as well some time ago, would've made sense, no?

About the butler-thing, I considered it being something as a chamberlain, in essence making it a personal advisor.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The court lived at Akhet-Aten for some 12 years. It's surprising to see how few people were buried there during that period.

It also seems (like you mentioned before I think) that they had several tombs going on at the same time.
This is at least what I would read behind the existence of the tombs of Aten related people in Memphis etc.

Does anyone know where the not so high officials would be buried?
We have the Amarna tombs, but there are only about 25 of these and they represent only the highest officials.
Where did the lower priests and dignitaries go?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The map of amarna shows two different sites, the 'North tombs' and 'South tombs' where noblemen were buried. The northern site is still not extensively been subjected to research.

Normally, judging by the time people lived in Amarna, during the entire occupation some 5780 up to 14450 people must have died there. They didn't get buried there though, and probably were brought 'home' since practically no-one was born in amarna and eventually got buried nearer to their birth-grounds. (Sue H. D'Auria)
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
The map of amarna shows two different sites, the 'North tombs' and 'South tombs' where noblemen were buried. The northern site is still not extensively been subjected to research.

Makes me wonder if there could be some undiscovered tombs out there.
Where would harem ladies be buried for instance? Would Akhie really ship them back to their families?

Segereh wrote:
Normally, judging by the time people lived in Amarna, during the entire occupation some 5780 up to 14450 people must have died there. They didn't get buried there though, and probably were brought 'home' since practically no-one was born in amarna and eventually got buried nearer to their birth-grounds. (Sue H. D'Auria)

I wonder what that is based on?

Do they have examples of people "buried nearer to their birth-grounds"?

Sounds like some, possibly magnificent, jumping to conclusions.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah sorry, didn't go much into detail.
Source is: "Pharaohs of the sun - Akhenaten, Nefertiti, Tutankhamen", from Museum of fine Arts, Boston (with chapters by Nicholas Reeves, W. J. Murnane and a lot of other big names).

Quote:
The median age at death among Egyptians of the pharaonic period was about thirty years, which represents a 1,7% annual mortality rate. In a city the size of amarna, with a population of 20000 to 50000, between 340 and 850 people would have died each year, or a total of 5780 to 14450 by the time the city was abandoned. We would have expected a large cemetery to have been located in or near the city, but, surprisingly, this is not the case. the explanation may lie in the fact that the residents of amarna were all transplanted from other towns: they may have buried their dead in their home cemeteries or removed the bodies from Amarna after the city's abandonment - though mass removals would themselves have left physical evidence. Or, perhaps amarna residents were buried on the west bank of the nile - the traditional realm of the dead - in a large cemetery that awaits discovery.

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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The comment about a possibel necropolis on the West Bank is intriguing. You would expect that.
I'm surprised people haven't looked yet. I wonder if sattelite photos would give some indication of building activity there.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much of a surprise since Egypt is getting a little crowded. We have fairly little visable ruins in the delta because of the same reason. If u look at it, most known sites are to be found in rather desert-land areas, not so keenly inhabited. Like I mentioned before, it's a shame but people got to make a living somehow.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The chance is high I'll be kicking in some open doors in here, so please...
Bear with me once more. Cool

It'll be a series again, about about everything (not a typo) I know of Horemheb.
It's not to be seen as a monologue, rather as a dialogue without the other persons having spoken back yet. Wink
Hope u can appreciate it.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's start with the basics - they're a bit controversial already.
Or at least disputed. Smile

Djeserkheperure (Horemheb)
c.1323-1295BC (18th Dynasty)

Throne names:
RpatHAti-a sS-nsw mAa mri.f wdnw n nsw m tA r-Dr.f imi-ramSa wr Hr-m-Hb
Hr kA nxt spd-sxrw
wr-biAwt-m-ipt-swt
hrw-Hr-mAat sxpr-tAwi
Dsr-xprw (stp.n-ra , HqA-mAat , HqA-wAst)
Hr-m-Hb (mri.n-imn , mri-imn)

1343-1315 (Redford)
1335-1308 (Gardiner, Arnold)
1333-1305 (O'Connor)
1328-1298 (Dodson)
1323-1295 (British Museum, Grimal, Lehner, Málek)
1319-1292 (Hornung, Krauss, Murnane, von Beckerath)
1305-1292 (Helck)
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horemheb's background is virtually unknown. He came either from the Herakleopolis-region or from near Amarna and is supposed to have been an army officer during the reign of Amenhotep III already. By the time of Akhenaten he had become Great Commander of the Army, and he held the title of King's Deputy (regent) under Tutankhamen. In Amarna-times his name might have been Paatenemhab ("Aton is present in Jubilation"). Horemheb was next to the it-netjer Aye, the strong man of the reign of Tutankhamen. His titles as a nobleman, before becoming King, are numerous and many of them have been extracted from his Memphite tomb (mentioned by anneke before). Aged 45-55, after Aye’s death, he ascended the throne, supported by the priests of Amen. It happened during the Theban Opet-festival that he became officially confirmed as rightful king by the god Amen.

Horemheb obviously felt that the latter stages of the 18th Dynasty had been something of a disaster, and that a return to a strong military-based kingship were required. He appointed priests chosen from the army and divided the country into two halves under two separate commanders.

To his predecessors he showed no mercy. On king-lists he became the successor of Amenhotep III, and he usurped the monuments of both Tutankhamen and Aye. He even took over Aye's mortuary temple (and two statues that Aye himself had usurped from Tutankhamen) and may well have been responsible for the violent destruction of Aye's tomb.

There are known facts of carrying out materials from the Amarna temple for his own building projects. To help construct the large gateway (dromos) to the Temple of Amen, Horemheb dismantled Akhenaten's Aten temples at Karnak and used the blocks as interior filling for his constructions. The central colonnade of the great hypostyle at Thebes as well as the 2nd, 9th and 10th pylons, the completion of the Luxor colonnade and the rock-temples at Nubia are only part of the widely performed building activities of Horemheb.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no absolute consensus among Egyptologists as to the length of Horemheb’s rule though. Presumably he reigned between 13 and 28 years. Although Horemheb's last regal date is a Year 59, he will not have ruled for more than 30 years. He dated his Year 1 from the death of Amenhotep III, thereby wiping Akhenaten, Smenkhkare, Tutankhamen and Aye from history. It seems that Horemheb died without an heir. As a successor he chose his vizier, military companion and friend Ramesses (°Pramessu), the son of a troop commander from Avaris (the capital of the Hyksos some 400 years previously). Although Ramesses must have been quite old when Horemheb decided to make him heir to the throne, he certainly had one fact in his favour: he already had a son in the army and a grandson. This turned out to be a new dynasty in the making.
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