Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

More than one Nakhtmin?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: More than one Nakhtmin? Reply with quote

Found this on a Spanish Language website:
(My translation - assisted by google translation tools)


Archaeology has left the statue us of a very important person at the time of the reign of Ay. This is a certain Yii, of whom we know that he was:
1. - Royal Scribe,
2. - Second Prophet of Amun
3. - First Prophet of Mut.
4. - Steward?? of (the queen) Tiye and of Amun

Yii is the son of an official named Nakhtmin and his wife Mutemnebut.
Mutemnebut had the titles of royal favorite and Sister of the Great royal Wife.

Could this be the connection between Nakhtmin and Mutnodjemet we were looking for?

The info comes from a statue which in Spanish translation reads:
"... por el Ka del Segundo Profeta de Amun, Primer Profeta de Mut, Escriba Real, Intendente del Dominio de la Reina Tiye en el Templo de Amun, Yii, hijo del Dignatario Najtmin, nacido de la Favorita del Rey y Hermana de la Gran Esposa Real, Mutemnebut."

"For the Ka of the Second Prophet of Amen, First Prophet of Mut, Royal Scribe, Steward for Queen Tiye and the the temple of Amun, Yii, son of the Dignitary Nakhtmin, born of the Favorite of the King, and the Sister of the Great Royal Wife, Mutemnebut"

I wonder if the Queen he served was really Queen Tey, wife of Ay.

http://inicia.es/de/alex_herrero_pardo/Yii.htm
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/


Last edited by anneke on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From http://inicia.es/de/alex_herrero_pardo/Najtmin_profeta.htm
(My translation again with some help from google-translation tools)

There is inscriptional evidence concerning Nakhtmin, First Prophet of Min and Isis.
His titles:
1. - Overseer of the Granaries(?) of all the Gods of the region of Jenty-Min (Ajmin)
2. - Great priest of Min and Isis in Ipu (Ajmin)
3. - First Prophet of Min and Isis
4. - Person in charge of the works of king (Ay)
5. - Favorite of King
6. - Great favorite of good God
7. - Director of the prophets of the Gentlemen of Ajmin (Min and Isis)
8. - Director of the works of [ Jeper-Jepru-Re Ir ] Maat (king Ay)?Menmenu, in the place of the Truth.

Other honors(?)
9. - Write,
10. - Wab-Priest in front of Isis
11. - Prince (or governor).

A stela (ppossibly dating to the time of Akhnaton??) lists his family.
The text provides the following information concerning family:

"...to his son Minmose, to his daughter Isis, to his daughter Tiy , to his son the scribe Tuy , to his son the scribe Nebuy and to the Lady of the house and Singer of Isis Mut-Tuy."

So with his wife Mut-Tuy, he had 2 sons and 3 daughters.

His son Minmose would become the next "First Prophet of Min", and he had a son named Paser II who would become Viceroy of Kush.

The author says that Yuya passed on his titles to Nakhtmin. He suggests that Nakhtmin is a son of Anen! Don't know how he got this. (Speculative? But it seems reasonable to assume that Nakhtmin at least belongs to the same family)

Does this mean that there are two Nakhtmins??? One the son of Aye, the other the son of Anen?
This would complicate things considerably.

We would have General Nakhtmin son of Aye and Yuy, adoratrice of Min and songstress of Isis.

And we have First Prophet of Min, Nakhtmin, son of Anen and ?

Both seemed to have served during the reign of Tutankhamen and Aye.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The inscription on the battered statue of Nakhtmin has been read as "King's son of Kush" (meaning Viceroy of Kush) instead of King's son of his body.
It seems that there is no room for him as Viceroy however.
We see:

Amenhotep, named Huy - Reign of Tutankhamen. His wife was Taemwadjsy, Superior of the Harem of Amen and the Harem of Nebkheperure (Tutankhamen).
Paser I - son of Amenhotep. Reign of Ay and Horemheb.
Iuni - Reign of Sety I
Imenemopet - son of Paser I. Reign of Sety I and Ramses II
Hekanakht - Reign of Ramses II
Huy - He was also Mayor of Tjarw (Pi-Ramses) and Messenger to Hatti. Reinado de Ramses II
Setau - Middle of the reign of Ramses II
Paser II - End of the reign of Ramses II

This, plus the damage to the statue indicates to me that General Nakhtmin was the son of Aye and Yuy.
I think that he was married to Mutnodjmet. Maybe even during the reign of Aye?
His cousin the Prophet Nakhtmin was married to Muttuy. His family fared better, and remained in some position of power.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After finding all of this info, I believe the following scenario is the most likely:

Yuya and Tuya had 3 children: Tiye, Anen and Aye.

Tiye married Amenhotep III and had 2 sons and as many as 5 or 6 daughters.
Anen married Yuy, and had a son called Nakhtmin who became the First Prophet. More important: I believe Anen and Yuy were the parents of Nakhtmin (the future Priest), Nefertiti and Mutnodjemet! I believe that when Anen died during the reign of Amenhotep III he was still relatively young, and left some very young children behind. The children were then raised by Aye and Tey. I believe that because Nefertiti lists Tey as her wet nurse, she must have been very young when her parents died. I also think that Mutnodjemet lived with her sister before she maried, again because her parents were dead and her foster-parents/aunt and uncle were also at court.

Aye and Tey had a son who was also called Nakhtmin. He would be the future General Nakhtmin.

In future generations the people in this family married cousins.

I think Nakhtmin, the son of Aye married his cousin Mutnodjemet, the daughter of Anen.

Akhenaten, son of Tiye married his cousin Nefertiti, daughter of Anen.

Nakhtmin, the son of Anen married a ladu called Muttuy, and one of their daughters became the next Superior of the harem of Amen. There's no evidence, but I would not be surprised if Muttuy was a daughter of Aye and Tey.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 papyri have been found. One on papyrus, the other on leather.
They depict the book of the dead, and belong to a Military leader called Nakht who lived during the Amarna age. The papyri are usually dated to the end of the 18th/ beginning 19th dynasty.

They have been translated by Sir Wallis Budge (I hope I have that name right).

It depicts Nakht with his wife Tjuiu (= Tuya).

Some have theorized that this might depict General Nakhtmin, son of Aye. In this case Nakht is just short for Nakhtmin.

Is there evidence for any other military figures called Nakht?



from: http://www.rom.on.ca/exhibits/egypt/vtour2fb_ext.html

Here's more info from the British Museum:
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/goto?id=OBJ10
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if Nakhtmin was already at court during the time of Akhenaten. There is a Vizier named Nakht-pa-Aten who had a tomb in Amarna (number 12).
Nakhtmin would not have been able to keep the part of his name referring to Min, and changing min to Aten would give something like Nakht-pa-Aten.....

Nakhtmin was an important person at the court of Tutankhamen, he died presumably during the reign of his supposed father Aye.

Nakhtmin is of the same generation as Nefertiti, so it would not be surprising if he was old enough to play a role in Amarna, and considering the importance of Aye it would be somewhat surprising if he did not hold some high position during the reign of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized that this post is absolutely riddled with mistakes. Confused Confused



anneke wrote:


"...to his son Minmose, to his daughter Isis, to his daughter Tiy , to his son the scribe Tuy , to his son the scribe Nebuy and to the Lady of the house and Singer of Isis Mut-Tuy."

So with his wife Mut-Tuy, he had 2 sons and 3 daughters.

His son Minmose would become the next "First Prophet of Min", and he had a son named Paser II who would become Viceroy of Kush.

.......

We would have General Nakhtmin son of Aye and Yuy, adoratrice of Min and songstress of Isis.

And we have First Prophet of Min, Nakhtmin, son of Anen and ?
.......


Nakhtmin and Mut-Tuy had 3 sons (Minmose, Tuy, and Nebuy) and 2 daughters (Isis and Tiy).

The two Nakhtmins would be:
1. General Nakhtmin son of Aye and Tey.
2. High-Priest Nakhtmin, son of Aanen and Yuy (adoratrice of Min and songstress of Isis.)
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering my "multitude of mistakes", I won't be abe to "steal" Maya's quote "In the beginning I was good, in the end I was brilliant" anytime soon Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

(I can get away with "In the beginning I was dumb, in the end I was not as bad" maybe?
As long as it doesn't deteriorate in: "In the beginning I was dumb, in the end I was dumber" Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing )
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/


Last edited by anneke on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing LMAO!! you're a crack up!
One thing it makes me feel better over my screw up yesterday over the Mut's hehe. Don't know what happened there Embarassed
Your doing damn well to sort out these two Nakhtmin's - I've had to read it through twice now to try and get it sorted in my head.
I've got nothing at all to add - have been slacking off reading my new book on Ramses II. Wink
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This link goes to the Virtual Egyptian Museum. There is a relief featured depicting a man of great power, likely a Vizroy, of Nubia during the reign of Ramses II.
http://www.virtual-egyptian-museum.com/Collection/FullVisit/Collection.FullVisit-JFR.html?../Content/WOD.XL.00088.html&0
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
Laughing LMAO!! you're a crack up!
One thing it makes me feel better over my screw up yesterday over the Mut's hehe. Don't know what happened there Embarassed
Your doing damn well to sort out these two Nakhtmin's - I've had to read it through twice now to try and get it sorted in my head.
I've got nothing at all to add - have been slacking off reading my new book on Ramses II. Wink


I know what you mean Laughing
I've been trying to organize all the info from the Spanish websites for myself. I'm still somewhat confused. There are 2 (or 3 at this point) Nakhtmins, at least 2 Minmoses. When they say "brother" they may or may not mean that literally... (could mean cousin, foster brother, etc)

I am going to see if there's some info in Morkot's book about Nubian rulers. It's mainly about later dynasties, but you never know.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2 Minmoses

I can imagine that name being pretty popular - meaning something like - Born of Min.
Nakhtmin, another Min name, though I don't know what the 'Nakht' might signify.
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that Nakht means something like "the powerful one"

There are quite a few people with names like
Nakht, Nakhtmin, Minnakht, Amennakht, Anhernakht, etc.

(I'm still holding out hope for an Isis-nakht Laughing the feminist in me is hoping for that one, but I'm not holding my breath....)
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(I'm still holding out hope for an Isis-nakht the feminist in me is hoping for that one, but I'm not holding my breath....)


Laughing How about Anneke-Nakht?!
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehehe, Anneke-Nakht huh? (I'm flattered by the implication)
Maybe I can turn that into Annakht and use it as my username?

As Egyptians were so fond of changing and abbreviating their names! This leads me to another observation:
The Priest Nakhtmin had sons Minmose, Tuy and Nebuy according to one inscription.
But on later documents we're lead to believe his sons were named
Minmose, Pennesutawy and Unnefer(=Wennefer)

Tuy and Nebuy are listed as scribes, and their names do sound like an abbreviation.

Unnefer (=Wennefer) was High Priest of Osiris and Unnefer=Wennefer is another name of Osiris. I wonder if he changed is name upon being appointed high priest?

The other possibility is that Nakhtmin had as many as 5 sons.

This family must have lived at the time of Amarna.
The royal family was wiped out, some say by the plague.
Why was this family seemingly unaffected? Did the plague not strike outside the capital??? Dumb luck?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group