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More than one Nakhtmin?
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Hehehe, Anneke-Nakht huh? (I'm flattered by the implication)
Maybe I can turn that into Annakht and use it as my username?

Yes! Absolutely! A blend of old and new names - cool Exclamation Very Happy

I'm thinking of adding your quote from another topic to my siggy: 'Never has so much been deduced from so little!' That is sooo me! Laughing
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think it's possible that the two Nakhtmins are one and the same person in separate phases of his life?
General Nakhtmin who marries Mutnodjmet - does he die or might he have remarried after Mutnodjmet marries Horemheb? Could he have married Muttuy/ Tjuiu who features in the Book of the Dead with a Nakhtmin. I notice in the papyrus that his wife Tjuiu is playing a Hathor headed sistrum - this would place her in the priestess-hood, a 'singer'.
I wondered too if the name of Yii, the son of Nakhtmin and Mutemnebut, is an abbreviation/nickname of a similar name to Yuya. I've read there are at least 11 different spellings of Yuya on various inscriptions, a couple Ya and Yi-a are similar to Yii.
Thoughts? Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had wondered about the 2 Nakhtmins being one too.

It's also possible of course that Mutemnebut is not he same person as Mutnodjemet. Nefertiti could have had 2 sisters.
Mutemnebut would have had to be a bit older than Mutnodjemet to have married and had a son Yii who was old enough to take a senior post during the reign of Aye. Or is my timeline off here?

But one Nakhtmin with more than one wife is also possible. It seems that even some nobles took multiple wives from what I can see.
I haven't read anything about that, but how many wives could an Egyptian have? As many as he could afford???

Could they divorce?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I'm thinking of adding your quote from another topic to my siggy: 'Never has so much been deduced from so little!' That is sooo me!


I may have to add it too Laughing

I just keep telling myself: "It's not my fault. There's not more to work with!" Laughing Laughing
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking back to the parents of Yii, and I looked back at the inscription:

“For the Ka of the Second Prophet of Amen, First Prophet of Mut, Royal Scribe, Steward for Queen Tiye and the the temple of Amun, Yii, son of the Dignitary Nakhtmin, born of the Favorite of the King, and the Sister of the Great Royal Wife, Mutemnebut”

Seems like it can't refer to a sister of Nefertiti! The Queen is specifically named as Tiye. Question is: which one?
If it is Tiye, wife of Amenhotep III, then Mutemnebut is a sister of Tiye and Anen!
This must be inscribed after year 30, bacause I believe that is the year Anen died, and Yii would not have been second prophet of Amen before that.
I thought the stewards for Tiye were known: Kheruef and Huya. So unless she had multiple stweards at the same time ? ......

If Tiye is the wife and Queen of Aye, then Mutemnebut is a sister of this Queen!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think "Nebettawy" means "Lady of the two lands" And I believe "Tawy" means "two lands". So that must mean that "nebet" means "lady"?

So does "Mut-em-nebut" mean "Lady of Mut"?

Assuming this is true, is it just convenient that the wife of the First Prophet of Mut was named "Lady of Mut", or has someone been renamed here?
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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“For the Ka of the Second Prophet of Amen, First Prophet of Mut, Royal Scribe, Steward for Queen Tiye and the the temple of Amun, Yii, son of the Dignitary Nakhtmin, born of the Favorite of the King, and the Sister of the Great Royal Wife, Mutemnebut”


Queen Tiye or Queen Tey I wonder. It would make quite a difference!
If it is in fact referring to Tiye then this Nakhtmin and Mutemnebut would be an older generation than General Nakhtmin and Mutnodjmet, to have a son older enough to be in such a high station during the reign of Amen III/ Tiye.

I wonder who was the eldest son between Ay and Anen?
How many Nakhtmin's were there in this era!!! Twisted Evil
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:

Queen Tiye or Queen Tey I wonder. It would make quite a difference!
If it is in fact referring to Tiye then this Nakhtmin and Mutemnebut would be an older generation than General Nakhtmin and Mutnodjmet, to have a son older enough to be in such a high station during the reign of Amen III/ Tiye.

I wonder who was the eldest son between Ay and Anen?
How many Nakhtmin's were there in this era!!! Twisted Evil


Aldred lists Yii as a nephew of Tey. And I think that the Spanish website dates the statue containing the inscription to the reign of Aye, so that supports the identification as the Queen mentioned as Tey.

I just posted some of this in the "Oharaohs and Queens Forum". Very Happy

But it means that this Nakhtmin is of the same generation as Ay, Tiye, Tey and Anen. They only give "dignitary" as the title for Nakhtmin. I have no idea what that means. Tey was not Queen when Nakhtmin and Mutemnebut married, so it is possible he wasn't all that important.

Yii was made Second Prophet of Amen and First prophet of Mut. Would he have gotten these positions solely through the connections of his mother?? It seems that you had to work your way through the ranks to make it to 1st and 2nd prophet. Does that mean that Nakhtmin was likely to be a Priest????
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are quite a few people with names related to "Nakht":

mid Dynasty 18 (Thutmose I - Thutmose IV)
Nakht, astronomer of Amun
Minnakht, overseer of the granary

late Dynasty 18 (Amenhotep III - Horemheb)
Nakht, bearer of floral offerings of Amun

Dynasty 18 (not more precisely dated; 'New Kingdom' tombs may be Ramesside)
Nakht, first king's son of Amun
Nakht, overseer of fowl-pens in the Amun domain

From:
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/thebes/tombs/thebantomblist.html

I think that Minnakht and Nakhtmin are written the same way. I wonder if Yii's father could be the Overseer of the Granary.



Your other question: Who is older Aye or Anen?
I had been wondering about that myself. Which position was more "prestigious" Second prophet of Amen, or Master of the Horse??

I got the impression that second prophet was in and of itself a higher postition than master of the horse. I would have thought that the eldest son would inherit / be placed in the position of the most power.

Aye turned out the more powerful one of the brothers, but that may not have been true when Anen was still alive.
My guess is that Anen was the oldest of the two. I think he may have been the oldest of all the siblings.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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My guess is that Anen was the oldest of the two. I think he may have been the oldest of all the siblings.

Yes, I'd agree with that - interesting Anen's move from Min to Ra/Amun.

Quote:
They only give "dignitary" as the title for Nakhtmin.

Not really much of a title for the husband of a Royal favourite and sister of a Great Royal Wife. Considering the heights Yii reached in the priesthood, I think its likely his father was also involved in some way in the priesthood, afterall sons often followed their fathers profession. Probably assisted by his wellconnected mother.

Quote:
Aldred lists Yii as a nephew of Tey.

That is interesting! Does Aldred give any source for this info?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Quote:
Aldred lists Yii as a nephew of Tey.

That is interesting! Does Aldred give any source for this info?


No, I've always found that frustrating. He just names him as Tey's nephew.
I wonder if he drew that conclusion from the inscription of Yii's statue. That seems the logical conclusion. I don't know of any other evidence of Yii.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nakht, astronomer of Amun

This 'astronomer' is an interesting title.
I've read mostly of Anen's title of Sem Priest at Heliopolis/Annu, but occassionally I've seen an alternative to that, namely him as Chief Seer of Annu - this having a astronomical connotation. Another thing I must read up on I think Smile
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I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a reference stating that Annu (Heliopolis in Greek, On of the bible) was had an astronomical college. I think Seer might be the same as Prophet.
The college at Annu was associated with the Book of the Dead.

There was a Theban version of the Book of the dead, which was much used in the 18-20th dynasty
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