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Tomb of Aperel - Foreign influence on Egypt
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:40 pm    Post subject: Tomb of Aperel - Foreign influence on Egypt Reply with quote

The French archeologist Alain Zivie unearthed the tomb of a vizier, and high priest of Ptah, called Aperel in Saqqara.
The name Aper-el seems to be semitic.
Some people have gone so far as to compare him to Moses, but considering that Aperel, his wife, and son (a General called Huy) were found buried in Saqqara, there seems to be no reason to make this identification.

1. Does this show an example of a Hebrew who came to power in Egypt?
2. A vizier is a very important man. Are there other examples of high ranking foreigners in Egypt?
3. The hymn to the Aten has been compared to Psalm 104. Are there more comparisons to other religions to be made?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention that Aper-el was vizier under Amenhotep III and Akhenaten.
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Hatshepsu
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

youve given me something to think about.. thank you .. now i need to look this guy up Very Happy im very interested in the moses question.
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Steve
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anything is posible but dont forget like almost every ancient Society and modern society they where pretty racist and some younger archeologists belive they where anti semetic. but personaly I need a little more then a few college boy theorys.
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almostascribe
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foriegners rose to powerfull postions in the egyptian government .... the egyptians embraced anyone who embraced them and their culture
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. Does this show an example of a Hebrew who came to power in Egypt?

absolutely
And there are heaps more, but the one that springs to my mind first is Yuya (father of Tiye who became the wife of Amenhotep III) whose well preserved mummy shows him to be of Semitic or Asiatic origin. Asiatics were reknown horsemen, highly valued at this time when the Egyptians were first utilizing chariots. The high status of Yuya and his wife Tuya is apparent in the unheard of privilage of them both being entombed in the Valley of the Kings.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuya seems to look non-egyptian.

(Here's a link for those of you who want to look for themselves

http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/subpics1/Yuya2.jpg )

He was also most likely the son of Yey and Tey.

I read somewhere that Amenhotep III came to the throne at a very young age, and that it is not clear who the real powers behind the throne were at that time.
His mother, Mutemwiya, was not a regent. Some think she came from the same family as Yuya and Thuya, and that this family was really the power behind the throne. This is how they got Amenhotep to marry Tiye, and elevate her to the position of great wife.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mutemwiya, I have read, and I'm sorry I dont have the books name Embarassed was a Mitannian princess.
Interesting what you say about her being of the family of Yuya, as I wondered why Amenhotep III was king if his mother was a foreign princess.
As Amenhotep III was crowned king as such a young age its said that Yuya became 'father to the king' and childhood possessions belonging to Amenhotep and Sitamun were found in the tomb of Yuya and Tuya. This indicates that they helped with the raising of the young king and his sister.
Another interesting thing about the family of Yuya is that Ay is also possibly from this line too.
*so many possibly's and maybe's arn't there*?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think there are two competing theories. Some see Muemwiya as the daughter of Artatama.
I can't remember why they started to wonder about the link with Yuya.
There is the fact that the Queen's name is linked to the Godess Mut. The Akhmin region was dedicated to the godess Mut.

Much less heard is a theory of Aldred's that even Kiya may be related to this Akhmin family. But if all this is true, then there was this parallel semi-royal family. I think that the only reason to link Kiya with this family from Akmin is her name.

There are however also peole who think that Kiya is Tadukhipa. Supposedly her name may have been pronounced more like Tadukiya, which is then shortened to Kiya. Kiya became important right after this Princess arrived.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is surely an interesting family and Im very much a learner here.
They appear in most powerful positions and really infiltrated if you like, the royal family. Where did they originate from before Akhmin, since Yey and Tey seem Semitic? With Yuya as high priest of Min at Akhmin, as well as his numerous other titles and his father master of the horse, this indicates a powerful family history.
Would love to hear more of what you have
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yey and Tey had at least 2 children:
Mutemwiya (married to Thutmosis IV)
Yuya (married to Tuya who may have been a dau. or grand dau of Amenhotep II)

Yuya and Tuya had 3 children
Tiye(-Nefertari) (married to Amenhotep III)
Aanen
Ay (married to Tiy and Ankhesenamun)

Ay had 3 children (some with Tiy?)
Nefertiti (married Akhenaten)
Mutnofret = Benemut (married Akhenaten)
Nakhtmin (a general during the Amarna period)

There's also supposedly some court official named Yii. (Mentioned in Aldred's book I believe) He was also related to this family.

There was another priestess called Huy, she was the mother of Queen Meritre Hatshepsut. There's a remote possibility she's also related to this clan.

I think that the fact that Yuya had great power, and was able to get his daughter marrried to the King is circumstantial evidence that he was closely related to Mutemwiya. Why else would the Queen-mother allow this commoner to marry his daughter to the Pharaoh?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops, typo in above post!!

Mutnofret did NOT marry Akhenaten. She married Horemheb.

I don't think it has been proven beyond a shodow of a doubt that this Mutnofret is the same Mutnofret as the sister of Nefertiti, but she did carry the title of "Heiress".

I did read an article that speculated that Mutnofret had been married to Nakhtmin. This would have then been a brother-sister marriage?
Nakhtmin would have been crown-prince while his father Ay ruled.

There's supposedly another Minnakht, maybe an uncle to Nakhtmin. (On his mother's side??)

This stuff is all very speculative. I wish they would find out more about these people.
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Hatshepsu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

argh!! sometimes i have to keep it in my mind and remember that the women carry down the royal lingeage.. NOT THE MEN!! lol just in case anyone esle forgot.. when you said heiress i was like OH ya!! Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hatshepsu wrote:
argh!! sometimes i have to keep it in my mind and remember that the women carry down the royal lingeage.. NOT THE MEN!! lol just in case anyone esle forgot.. when you said heiress i was like OH ya!! Smile


I think that theory has been discarded. The heiress theory was put forward to explain the fact that the King married his own daughter. I think that modern scholars were appaled by that because father/daughter and brother/sister relations are such a taboo in our society. Not only that, you go to jail....

There was a position of God's Wife of Amun, which became very important under Ahmose-Nefertari. The position was later held by for instance Hatshepsut and her daughter Neferure.
I think that Meritre-Hatshepsut, great wife of Thutmosis III was the last to hold it. There is a theory though that women kept track if they were descendants from Ahmose-Nefertari. This queen was deified after her death.

So it's possible that the title of "Heiress" meant that they were descendant from Ahmose-Nefertari.
Mutnofret was not a royal after all. She was the daughter (presumably) of Ay and Tey. So you can't really argue that she was a Royal heiress.

I think the reason they (Egyptologists) discarded the "heiress-theory" was because they realized that many of the main Queens were not the daughter of the reigning queen. Tiye was not Royal, and Amenhotep III married his daughter Sitamen much later in his reign. At that point he was a well established and powerful ruler, so there was no need for him to "inherit " the throne via his daughter.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting link on Gods wife and the possible inheritance of the title:
http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/english/maat_ka_ra/gottes_gm.htm

This site also mentions Tiaa wife of Amenhotep II as a Gods Wife and Gods Hand.
Quote:
- Tiaa, wife of Amenhotep II and mother of Thutmosis IV, according to Troy she had held the title of a "God's Wife" and according to the LÄ (Vol. VI, 554) also that of a "God's Hand". Tiaa neither held the title of a "King's Daughter" nor that of a "King's Sister", i.e. also she did not get the title over the matrilinear line.


Also interesting that it mentions the title being passed to a female priest in the time of Amenhotep III
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