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AKHENATEN
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Yves Van Herp
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:57 pm    Post subject: AKHENATEN Reply with quote

The name Akhenaten (Echnaton) is mentioned quite a lot on this forum. But wasn't Akhenaten the same person as Amenothep III?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akhenaten is the same person as Amenhotep IV.
He was the second son of Amenhotep III. His brother Thutmose was Crown Prince before him, but died at a young age.

I don't know when Amenhotep IV changed his name to Akhenaten. By his 6th year as King he moved to the newly founded city of Akhet-Aten (now known as Amarna, Tell-el-Amarna). By that time he was known as Akhenaten.

His name Amenhotep seems to have been found in nobles tombs in Thebes and Saqqara (Memphis).
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Yves Van Herp
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Akhenaten is the same person as Amenhotep IV.
He was the second son of Amenhotep III. His brother Thutmose was Crown Prince before him, but died at a young age.

I don't know when Amenhotep IV changed his name to Akhenaten. By his 6th year as King he moved to the newly founded city of Akhet-Aten (now known as Amarna, Tell-el-Amarna). By that time he was known as Akhenaten.

His name Amenhotep seems to have been found in nobles tombs in Thebes and Saqqara (Memphis).


It's true, I must say I was wrong with the succession numbering. I knew it as soon as I saw your reply.
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Horus
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 7:06 pm    Post subject: ??? Reply with quote

Wasn't Akhenaten killed by his own army, because they didn't agree on the the one god and the ideas of Akhenaten ?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my knowledge, nobody knnown how he died.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I knew how to type, that would have read: "nobody knows" Confused

I believe it's fairly certain that he died and was then buried in the royal tomb at Amarna.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt the pharaoh's subjects were really 'into' the religious quarreling between Akh-en-Aten and the priests of Amon. It's desillusioning, but that 'war' eventually got down to the basic fact of money. Money is influence and the Amon-clergy had a lot of it. Note that Amon wasn't actually a real popi god in Egypt, he was the official leader of the pack, yeah, but does that mean we have to see that in a 20th century-ish point of view? Egypt wasn't a democracy. Amon was the god of pharaoh and clergy, okidoki, but what gods did the commoners believe in? Note how abstract the qualities of Amon are: god of light, an invisible god at first, who only got to power by the attribution of powers that belonged to other gods (take the most explicit one: Amon-Ra where he became the god of sun). That happened in like 5 or 6 generations? Traditions don't die easily, not even after a century and certainly not in Egypt. Amon was an abstract god at first, not an easy one to attract the devotion of people who were used to work on the land, make their hands dirty, sweat, bleed and cry. I doubt Amon could really make the people stand up for his cause. It could make its clergy angry, ok. But I think it's overexagerated if people say there was a real religious revolution by the overturning of Amon. This was first of all a palace-revolution.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: ??? Reply with quote

Horus wrote:
Wasn't Akhenaten killed by his own army, because they didn't agree on the the one god and the ideas of Akhenaten ?


Last message was meant to respond to the quote Confused forgot to mention it though. Anyone noticed I'm a Scribe now? Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: ??? Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Horus wrote:
Wasn't Akhenaten killed by his own army, because they didn't agree on the the one god and the ideas of Akhenaten ?


Last message was meant to respond to the quote Confused forgot to mention it though. Anyone noticed I'm a Scribe now? Very Happy


Yeah I noticed you're a scribe. Cool

If Akhenaten was murdered by the army, then it would more likely to have been because he neglected the army, and thereby underminde their powerbase.

I agree with you that the army would not care enough about religion.
Individuals might though. Remember that the egyptians thought the afterlife was very important. By denying the people their own choice of worship, some may have felt that their eternal life was in peril.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I agree with you that the army would not care enough about religion. Individuals might though. Remember that the egyptians thought the afterlife was very important. By denying the people their own choice of worship, some may have felt that their eternal life was in peril.

Did he deny them their worship? His hymns mention gods like Shoe and Re. I doubt it the amarna-revolution really installed monotheism. I'd rather think of a certain henotheism, where other gods were accepted but not euhm... 'encouraged'.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:

Did he deny them their worship? His hymns mention gods like Shoe and Re. I doubt it the amarna-revolution really installed monotheism. I'd rather think of a certain henotheism, where other gods were accepted but not euhm... 'encouraged'.


There is evidence of the removal of the names of the old gods. There are tombs (for instance one of the viziers of Amenhotep I believe) where the name of Amun was systematically removed. Including from the name of his own father btw! (You can let your own psychological theories loose on that one Smile )

I believe there are also examples of the removal of the name of Mut.
I don't know how extensive the persecution of the names of the other gods was, but it definitely took place to some extent.

Some experts see the whole religious revolution as a repressive movement (I believe that's Dr. Reeves' point of view.)
They also point out the heavy presence of the military in Akhetaten. (Per evidence from the scenes in the tombs there I think.)
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe there are also examples of the removal of the name of Mut.
I don't know how extensive the persecution of the names of the other gods was, but it definitely took place to some extent.


Interestingly Aten was worshiped as the one and only god, the sole Lord of the Universe.
Professor Petrie states 'Aton was the only instance of a 'jealous' god, and this worship was exclusive of all others, and claims universality.'

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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

who else than the divine anneke wrote:
I don't know how extensive the persecution of the names of the other gods was, but it definitely took place to some extent.

That's what I wondered. All sources I know mention the iconoclasm against the Amun-triad (Amun-Mut-Khonsu), but u can't hide the fact that even in his famous hymn to Aten, the names are mentioned of gods, closely linked to the ideology of the sun. Being Ra (the psychic force behind the sun), Sju (the element in which the sun can exist) and Horus in the form of Hor-em-Achet (Harmachis), symbolizing dawn and resurrection. (Note: the word "Achet", used for "horizon" also refers to the place where people become "ach's", the ancestral spirits.)

I can't see to stop wondering how far the monotheist tendencies were pulled. Amun was a popular target, that's for sure. But how about the other deities and their followings?


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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have wondered too how far the repression of the old gods went.
The strong attack against Amun-Mut-Khons makes sense in that these were the most powerful deities at that point.
I would not be surprised if there was a strong political component in the prosecution of these gods.

It seems that the surpression of the old gods would be easiest in Akhetaten. I don't know if they would have been able to affect the people in the country much.

I did see something interesting in the museum here in St Louis. They have a very small collection of Egyptian artifacts, but they do have the mummy of Henut-Wedjen (I'm probably mis-remembering the second part of her name Crying or Very sad )

She was a songstress of Amun, and her husband was a man called Hatiay, who was the overseer of the granaries of Aten. Husband and wife serving "enemy gods"??? It could of course be that she died much much earlier, and Hatiay didn't rise in the Aten hierarchy until later, but I still found it intriguing.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

Have u ever?! Never noticed that one, but I have to admit I don't know the museum of St-Louis Confused

More, more!!!!
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