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Why did Akhenaten erase his fathers memory?
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Claire
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Why did Akhenaten erase his fathers memory? Reply with quote

Why did akhenaten erase his fathers name from all monuments when he came to the throne? was there a hate or disagreement between them?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that what Akhenaten had erased was the "Amun" part of Amunhotep. There is no sense in which Akhenaten went after the memory of his father.
He had the name of Amun erased from many tombs and monuments.
I think it's a sign of the persecution of the Amun priesthood, not a persecution of his father.
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Claire
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh i get it now, he was just trying to erase amun from everywhere including his fathers name Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the point that towards the end of Amenhotep III's reighn there were several artifacts made name his as "the glorious Aten" or something to that effect. Wouldn't it be fair to say that Akhenaten would have preferred this name for his father than "Amenhotep" The name he abandoned for himself also?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Wouldn't it be fair to say that Akhenaten would have preferred this name for his father than "Amenhotep" The name he abandoned for himself also?


In my opinion, I think that is a fair statement. Amenhotep III too was a sun-king so maybe after his death, Akhenaten directly associated him with the Aten.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen a theory where Amenhotep III - Akhenaten - Nefertiti were a triad of deities where Amenhotep III represented Aten, Akhenaten Shu, and Neferiti Tefnut.

On a shrine that belonged to Queen Tiye's funerary equipment Amenhotep III's name was just given as Nebmaatre (his throne name). The only difference was that pre-Amarna the name was written with the goddess Maat representing the middle part of his name while on this shrine "Maat" was spelled out phonetically with other glyphs.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a smattering of evidence that Atenism actually predates Akhenaten and got a bug boost first in Amenhotep III's reign. Among them is the epithet he added to his cartouche, 'The Gleaming Aten'.

Other refs to this including 'THe House of the Gleaming Aten' include the divine determinative indicating A-III meant more than a mere sun disk. There are similar refs - including devine determiantive - going back to Thutmosis I and Amenhotep II; they increased in the time of Hatshepsut and T-III.

A bit later in A-III's reign there was an entire army regiment named the Tjehen Aten (as well as a city Tjehen Aten and a mansion). There are a number of tombs to army lieutentants, scribes and such from that regiment. What is inescapable is that you dont name army regiments after minor deities. Thus there had to be some level of extant Atenist cult such as temples and priesthood.

Possibly this was named in honor of Amenhotep after he took on a diefied atatus after his 30 yr jubilee, or maybe it was merely some sort of honor guard for him. Irrespective it looks like much of the Atenism focus - coexisting with his ongoing Amun support - originated with Amenhotep.

This led one scholar to suggest that what Akhenaten really did was to usurp the preexisting Aten priesthood and elevate Aten to the level of a state god.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBJ wrote:
Quote:
(as well as a city Tjehen Aten and a mansion).

How interesting - I'd not heard of the regiment or the city.
Do you know where the city was?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How interesting - I'd not heard of the regiment or the city.
Do you know where the city was?


Nope, sorry - it is just lost. There were mansions in Akhetaten named after Thutmisis III and IV as well so who knows what these things were.

The house of Tjehen Aten may be shorthand for the deified Amenhotep III (that is 'Nebmaatre Tjehen Aton' is the name of the deified A-III). An incomplete Thebes tomb for Neferekheru shows he held the titles "Master of the the House of (Nebmaatre) Tjehen Aten' and Legrain found some fragments in the early 1900s using the same names but in context for a city. This might just mean a collection of buildings or even a named area of the city.

Hayes in 1951 reported the name was used alot around the Malqatta palace including a storeroom clerk, a storeroom guardian and a scribe for the Tjehen Aten.

On of the titles of Ramose of TT46 was "Steward of the House of the Aton"

The military regiment is much more well attested. There is a statue of Kamesu who was a standard bearer of 'the regiment of Nebmaatre The Spendor of the Aten'; a door jamb for Karoy of Abydos was a lieutenant in the Tjehen Aten; a stela of Nebjefaw was a standard bearer for the ship 'Tjehen Aten'; Ydet was the standard bearer for 4 units one of which was Tjehen Aten; Pashedu was company scribe of Tjehen Aten; and Henna was an infantryman of the company 'Tjehen'.

It is entirely possible that this was a regiment named after the deified and deceased Amenhotep. But he did use the epithet for a while later while still alive which leads Giles to propose that Neb became the 'Nebmaatre The Spledor of the Living Aten' and pressed to have himself worshipped as such after his 1st jubilee. Like father, like son I guess.

I raised the points to show his knee-deep involvement in Atenism earky on (besides Bekeaten Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote VBadJuJu : This might just mean a collection of buildings or even a named area of the city.


According to an article by Raymond Johnson that city was Amenhotep III's jubilee city to the south of Medinet Habu , the " House of the Dazzling Aten" or modern-day Malkata.

The Revolutionary Role of The Sun in the Reliefs and Statuary of Amenhotep III.

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/EPI/NN_FAL96/NN_Fal96.html

One of the best articles about Amenhotep III and his deification while alive .
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that Amenhotep III had played a larger role in Atenism than most people have speculated. T4 aknowledged Aten, A3 took it further, then Akhenaten took it as far as he could. So it was kind of like the family business LOL. Seriously though I respect all three of them for all of their efforts and accomplishments.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference between the aten (the sun disk) and the Aten (as a god). Mentions of the aten here and there arent all that interesting or indicative because for many years you could see phrases like 'the king and ruler of all the aten encircles'. That obviously just means the whole world.

When they start adding the little picture of the god to indicate they mean Aten is where you can start to see Atenism come alive. There are other places where it can be taken in context; for instance a prayer to 'Ptah, Horus, Re and Aten'. The inscription may lack the determinative but it is clear from the context they mean more then the simple disk.

That starts early in the 18th D and slowly gains ground all the way thru. Looks to me like Amenhotep may have been the one to give it the biggest boost by associating his deified self with it after his jubilee.

The notion that it was a political act against Amun kinds bugs me though because lots of the 18th D kings owed their throne to Amun.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBad, while it's true that many of the 18th Dynasty Pharaohs--particularly Ahmose--credit Amun with giving them the throne, at the point of the later 18th Dynasty the overwhelming power and the riches accumilated by Amun had grown to staggering proportions.
The closing of the Amun temples and the diversion of his wealth to Aten was a very political as well as an emotional move. Basically, Amun was prohibited to the people.
I think the vast wealth that was diverted was a huge part of the action.
It irritates me, though, when people talk about Akhenaten erasing the memory of his father. He did no such thing, merely removing the word "Amun" from his father's heiroglyphs. The other names of AIII remained untouched.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II I agree with you one-hundred percent!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
VBad, while it's true that many of the 18th Dynasty Pharaohs--particularly Ahmose--credit Amun with giving them the throne
But Hatshepsut AND Thutmosis III owe their entire reign to Amun - a statue literally giving the nod to the crown prince, indeed. But my puzzlement stems from the fact that these were strong rulers and good for Egypt so why would the later kings harbor ANY resentment that they had come to power.

Amenhotep III and Akhenaten both cruised along without havong to do much based on the fruits of the labors mainly of T-III and A-II so why be resentful? Had it not been for them, these two would have had to actually act like kings once in a while.

Osiris II wrote:
at the point of the later 18th Dynasty the overwhelming power and the riches accumilated by Amun had grown to staggering proportions.
Yes, I know - they owned as much as 75+% of the farmland, but as noted elsewhere that actually worked tot he benefit of the crown in getting the lacd worked. But those riches had been given to them in thanks. It is not like they stole it or did anything underhanded to obtain it.

In spite of his putative resentment, A-III continued to support Amun. He could have switched to some other god, but he didnt. He could have taken back whatever he wanted, but he didnt.

I understand the basic reason but there are some conflicting interests and contradictions that cause me puzzlement. It is like a registered Republicrat constantly complaining about the government but also consistently voting party lines.

Osiris II wrote:
He did no such thing, merely removing the word "Amun" from his father's heiroglyphs. The other names of AIII remained untouched.
In lots of the later titles they just put "Nebmaatre" in both his cartouches.

Maat good, Amun bad Wink
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