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The Aten
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kat wrote:
The Aten wrote:

Quote:
Howard Carter stole like 2/3 of it before revealing it to the world, he even built his own entrance straight into the antechamber so that he could block off other rooms to stop people wondering why it was so empty, he sawed the ends of chariots so that they would fit through his stuped door, and he stole the sarcoghagus lid and replaced it with a granite one!!! if that is nearly untouched then my God!!


Are you still relying on the sensationalized account in _The Tutankhamen Deception_? There are better, more reliable accounts to be had, ones that don't have an agenda hidden in their pages.
that, surely, is down to belief? not something which is a certain truth, it may well be true, he suggests a few other books as well which say pretty much the same thing, and I intend to read them too!
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nekht-Ankh wrote:
I think you mean northern parts of England

Ooops, not sure how I managed that, but of course I meant England. Laughing See, I always find a way to humiliate myself.... Very Happy

Nekht-Ankh wrote:
not, as far as I know, that we've used any words peculiar to this part of the country.

I'm only going on what I know through my own personal experience as well as what people who live near me have been through, which is a complete lack of been understood throughout the rest of England. I suppose it is much to do with a heavy accent, but it's also a well-known fact in Yorkshire (at least the parts that I live close to) that we have many phrases which can be understood by very few elsewhere, but again it's possible the obscurity comes from accent too.
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Nekht-Ankh
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daughter_Of_SETI wrote:
... but it's also a well-known fact in Yorkshire (at least the parts that I live close to) that we have many phrases which can be understood by very few elsewhere,


I agree. I was born and raised in Yorkshire. It's just that I don't think words like naff and chav come from Yorkshire; if anything their origins are in southern England.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, the language I use is very much London-born...don't even get me started on the 'youth slang' that many chavvy London teenagers speak. It's pretty scary stuff.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nekht-Ankh wrote:
I agree. I was born and raised in Yorkshire. It's just that I don't think words like naff and chav come from Yorkshire; if anything their origins are in southern England.

OK, it's very possible that I didn't word it correctly in my original post. Yes, naff and chav are southern words, and we use them up north too. When I wrote that "that can't be good if you're taking too much notice of my corruption of the English language" [aimed at Kmt_sesh], I was just speaking generally, not about the particular words that Isisinacrisis had used.
Now I'm even beginning to confuse myself. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear originally. It kind of makes a good point about us Yorkshire folk , though! (Nekht-Ankh not included, I always understand what you're saying).
Anyway, sorry if I confused everyone. Very Happy
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nekht-Ankh wrote:
Quote:
I think you mean northern parts of England - not, as far as I know, that we've used any words peculiar to this part of the country.


LOL I don't know. I have that Billy Elliot movie on DVD and it was shot in northern England. One time I watched it with subtitles just for the hell of it, and it wasn't till then that I realized how much of the dialogue I'd been mishearing. Okay, that has more to do with dialect than particular slang, but I've worked with plenty of people from southern England and usually understand them just fine.

isisinacrisis wrote:
Quote:
...don't even get me started on the 'youth slang' that many chavvy London teenagers speak.


Oooo, "chavvy," a derivation of "chav." And what does "chav" mean again? I should really be writing this stuff down. Laughing
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The Aten
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kat wrote:
Are you still relying on the sensationalized account in _The Tutankhamen Deception_? There are better, more reliable accounts to be had, ones that don't have an agenda hidden in their pages.


he was actually caught attempting to steal a monument, putting it into a wine crat for hiding! how can you say that he definately didn't steal more, I believe that he did, I have, to this day, read the tut- deception, and another book that I rented from the library which both say that about 2/3 of the artefacts were stolen! so I think that is enough evidence for me, I believe two published books, rather than what is written on a forum*****.

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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with kat on this one.

If you look at the published photographs of the tomb contents and the catalogue of objects, then there is absolutely no way that 2/3 of the tomb contents was squirreled away. It's just not possible. There would have been no room in KV63 for the other 7,000 or so items that would have then had to be in the tomb.

It is true that Carter tried to steal the head of Tutankhamen (the one showing him as a child - Nefertem? - rising from a lotus flower). This is an item that was found stashed in a crate. This is the ONLY item ever documented to have been in Carter's possession to my knowledge. There may have been an attempt to steal some of the smaller items in the tomb, but it cannot have been a very large number due to the publicity and the extensive photographic record of the excavation.

Besides where are those 7,000 items now? Wouldn't the museums and private collections been over flowing with these artefacts? If 60% of the tomb contents was removed, then they would still have ended up on the antiquities market. And yet there's no trace of them....

Considering that Farrell then continues to equate Akhenaten with Moses and Tutankhamen with Jesus, I would say you have a crackpot on your hands.

I would be very careful just believing anything that is written. There are always some sensationalist authors out there who make unsubstantiated claims.
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Last edited by anneke on Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Aten wrote:

Quote:
he was actually caught attempting to steal a monument, putting it into a wine crat for hiding! how can you say that he definately didn't steal more, I believe that he did, I have, to this day, read the tut- deception, and another book that I rented from the library which both say that about 2/3 of the artefacts were stolen! so I think that is enough evidence for me, I believe two published books, rather than what is written on a forum*****.


As Anneke said, Carter was caught with _ONE_ item, the head of Tut as Nefertem rising from a lotus.

I'm sorry that you've only read two books as it's a mildly interesting subject.

Here is my bibliography of books related to the history of the Amara era:

AMARNA PERIOD (bibliography copyright 2006, kat newkirk)

Brier, Bob, _The Murder of Tutankamen A True Story_, G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York, c. 1998, ISBN 0- 399- 14383- 1


Fletcher, Joann, _Chronicle of a Pharaoh The Intimate Life of
Amenhotep III_, Oxford University Press, New York, c. 2000, ISBN 0- 19- 521660- 1
_
Freed, Rita, Yvonne J. Markowitz, and Sue D'Auria, editors, _Pharaohs of the Sun Akhenaten Nefertiti Tutankhamen_, Museum of Fine Arts in association with Bullfinch Press, Little, Brown, and Company, Boston, c. 1999, ISBN 0-
9212- 2620- 7 cloth

Kozloff, Arielle P. and Betsy M. Bryan with Lawrence M. Berman, _Egypt's Dazzling Sun Amenhotep III and His World_, pub. The Cleveland Museum of Art, c. 1992

Hornung, Erik, (David Lorton, translator), _Akhenaten and the Religion of Light_, Cornell University Press, Ithaca, New York, c. 1999, ISBN 0- 8014- 3658- 3

Tyldesley, Joyce, _Nefertiti Egypt's Sun Queen_, Viking Press,
New York, c. 1998, ISBN 0- 670- 86998-8

Redford, Donald B., _Akhenaten The Heretic King_, Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey,. c.1984, ISBN 0-691-03567-9

Reeves, Nicholas, _Akhenaten Egypt's False Prophet_, Thames and Hudson, New York, c. 2001, ISBN 0- 500- 05106- 2
_The Complete Tutankhamun The King The Tomb The Royal Treasure_, Thames and Hudson, New York, c. 1990 (this paperback edition 1995), ISBN 0-500-27810-5

Watterson, Barbara, _Amarna, Egypt's Age of Revolution_, Tempus Books, Charleston, South Carolina, c. 1999, ISBN 0- 7524- 1438- 0


Leaving aside the fact that Brier's murder theory has largely been disproven, this book does have some decent information. And these are books that I not only own, but have read! Very Happy

FWIW, Carter's excavation notes are available, for free, on the Griffith Institute webpage:

http://www.ashmolean.museum/gri/carter/HomePage.html
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Tutankhamun: Anatomy of an Excavation" page is really wonderful:
http://www.ashmolean.org/gri/4tut.html

The original photographs by Harry Burton are wonderful.

The original texts by Mace and Gardiner are also quite interesting. They show there were quite a few egyptologists present.

I also read about some of the going ons in Weigall's biography: Passion For Egypt : A Biography of Arthur Weigall by Julie Hankey.
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kat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The "Tutankhamun: Anatomy of an Excavation" page is really wonderful:
http://www.ashmolean.org/gri/4tut.html


Thanks, Anneke, I lost that link and I was looking for it too! Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Besides where are those 7,000 items now? Wouldn't the museums and private collections been over flowing with these artefacts?


They're on display in the docents' lounge at the Field Museum. And we're using the Nefertem head as a planter base. There's a lovely fern atop it now. Very Happy

In my own response to The Aten I had tried logging on to the Ashmolean site to use some of its photos, but I couldn't log on no matter what I did. It seemed the site was down or under some maintenance at the time, but I'm relieved to see it accessible again (I was kind of worried).

This is an invaluable site for the study of KV62. For anyone who may have fallen prey to this book The Aten has been rereading, please, just peruse the site in anneke's link.

KV62 was one of the most carefully and professionally excavated archaeological sites of its time. Every single step was charted and photographed, as was nearly every artifact. There was no mass of artifacts stolen, and there certainly weren't any "secret" passages carved into there.

Regarding the number of pieces that may have been squirreled away by Carter or others, in my earlier post I did remark that certain things were found in Carter's estate after he had died. An Egyptologist from the O.I. went into this in one of our training sessions for the Tut exhibit, back in May. He even named a few of the pieces, but regrettably I didn't jot them down in my notes and I can't remember what they were (please, I can barely remember last week much less five months ago!). But I stress again that there were only a few pieces and they were returned to Egypt after World War II. As I remember it they were presented to a high government official, who in turn gave them to the Cairo museum.

Quote:
I would be very careful just believing anything that is written. There are always some sensationalist authors out there who make unsubstantiated claims.


I couldn't agree more. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's valid. Anyone can write a book, and there is a big market for gullible conspiracy theorists these days. For instance, they've added a new book to the Tut gift shop at the Field Museum, and I was shocked to see it there next to selections by Reeves and Aldred and Hawass. It is John Gordon's Egypt: Child of Disney Land: A Radical Interpretation of the Origins of Civilization. In my opinion this sort of pyramidiocy does not belong on any shelf in an institution devoted to history, anthroplogy, and science.

Sorry for the rant. In any case, once again, kat, nice bibliography. That's the sort of literature people interested in ancient Egypt should be reading.
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The Aten
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Considering that Farrell then continues to equate Akhenaten with Moses and Tutankhamen with Jesus, I would say you have a crackpot on your hands.


he doesn't say that tutankhamun was jesus to what I recall, but, the fact that Akhenaten could be what the bible says is moses I believe could be true, I mean, Moses preached about one god, and so too did Akhenaten did he not, so where is the problem here? it would explain why one god religion is so popular after Akhenaten changed it to that so many years ago, although they then changed back to the hundreds of gods it is still the orogins of what we have now!
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kat
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Aten wrote:


Quote:
the fact that Akhenaten could be what the bible says is moses I believe could be true, I mean, Moses preached about one god, and so too did Akhenaten did he not, so where is the problem here? it would explain why one god religion is so popular after Akhenaten changed it to that so many years ago, although they then changed back to the hundreds of gods it is still the orogins of what we have now!


I try to believe in three impossible things before breakfast, but this isn't one of them! Very Happy

Akhenaten didn't preach "only one god" but rather forbade the Amun cult for political reasons (ie the Amun priesthood was so powerful that it was a serious rival to the throne's power.) The other cults were still allowed, and amulets of these other deities have been found throughout Amarna. To celebrate the inundation, Akhenaten and Nefertiti ceremonially took the roles of Shu and Tefnut. etc. etc. There is a lot of evidence written in books other than the two you've read that supports my statements.

Now, monotheism's borrowings from the various AE cults is a topic for another thread, but I thnk that has already been addressed somewhere here at ED.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that at one point, Akhenaten did abolish almost all of the traditional Egyptian religion, including the belief in the afterlife and Osiris? Didn't he try to change the afterlife belief to revolve around his cult? Or is this a misconception?

I admit I'm still confused because I always read that Akhenaten only worshipped Aten (I think he worshipped some forms of Ra exclusively, then switched to just Aten), despite many people not wanting to convert to his new religion.

People stil worshipped the old gods in secret anyway, no matter how hard the Aten cult was enforced, they didn't want to give up the old gods, eg the household worship of Bes, etc.
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