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The Aten
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
People stil worshipped the old gods in secret anyway


well yeah, that is probably why amulets, that kat spoke of, were still found.

but from what I have seen heard and read Akhenaten got rid of ALL gods except The Aten, me, and even built a city dedicated to it, so he was the first to declare that there was one god, ruler of all.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akhenaten was not a true monotheist. If we need to find a modern label for his brand of worship, it would be henotheism. This would fit well, but there were other gods whose worship was allowed at the state level under Akhenaten, most notably those related to the solar cult of Re (seeing how the Aten began as a minor manifestation of this god).

Isisinacrisis is correct about the supreme lords of the dead. Gone were Osiris and Anubis and Wepwawet and the other usuals.

The connection with Shu and Tefnut remained in the early stages of the Amarna revolution. Those commanding statues of Akhenaten wearing the Shu feathers atop his crown were most common while he was still Amunhotep IV or soon after he'd changed his name to Akhenaten. Eventually even this connection with Shu and Tefnut was abandoned (the changes to the formal names of the Aten is ample evidence of this). The more time went on, the more insular and narrow Akhenaten's religion went on.

His spin on henotheism was notable, however. A common person could not worship the Aten on his own. Perish the thought! No, the common man had to worship Akhenaten, who would act as the one and only intermediary between the Aten as god and Akhenaten as god-king. This is why homes in Amarna were accessorized with devotational statues of Akhenaten and his immediate family, though privately worship of Taweret and Bes still flourished.

As for the connection between Akhenaten and the biblical Moses...well, there isn't any. None. Nada. Outside the Old Testament there is absolutely no evidence that Moses ever even existed. Just because Akhenaten personally favored one god over others, we should not be misled into believing that there's any connection between this and Yahweh of the Bible. The Aten and Yahweh are two entirely different deities in space and time. That the Jews were influenced by the Egyptians cannot be argued, but it's a real stretch to suggest the Jews developed Yahweh from the Aten.
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kat
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt-sesh wrote:

Quote:
His spin on henotheism was notable, however. A common person could not worship the Aten on his own. Perish the thought! No, the common man had to worship Akhenaten, who would act as the one and only intermediary between the Aten as god and Akhenaten as god-king. This is why homes in Amarna were accessorized with devotational statues of Akhenaten and his immediate family, though privately worship of Taweret and Bes still flourished.


I agree with most of what you've written, but I'd like some clarification on this one point, please. I was under the impression that Akhenaten was the sole intermidiary between the Aten and the mases of the ppl, but that this was rather a return to the way the solar cults were practiced the c. 4th Dynasty or so. And even after Amarna, the Pharaoh was the _only_ priest - the 'priests' in the temples were mere deputies acting at the Pharaoh's direction. This is borne out by temple 'art', where you routinely see the Pharaoh performing ritual actions, but with nary a subortinate in sight.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By all appearances Akhenaten was personally involved heavily in daily rituals to the Aten, but this was in one city with only a couple of major temples (I couldn't begin to guess how many smaller shrines may have been scattered throughout Akhetaten, and I doubt it's even known). To a similar extent the same may have even been true in the Heliopolis cult center back in the Old Kingdom, long before Egypt experienced the blossoming of massive temples that would later dot the valley up and down the Nile. Sneferu and Khufu and their kingly kin back then may have been more directly involved in temple proceedings, at least at Iunu (though even in the Old Kingdom there was a well-established, hierarchical class of priests).

But by the New Kingdom there were temples devoted to the state gods from south of Aswan all the way into the Delta. It was impossible for Pharaoh to be present at all of these places. This is why there were such powerful high priests--they acted on Pharaoh's behalf in daily rituals. Nevertheless, Pharaoh was carved into the walls and shown tending to the ritualistic needs of the deities, because to carve such a thing in a temple was to represent reality. It's a dual existence, so to speak: the king is depicted as present, but high priests and their staffs carried out the proceedings. Certainly pharaohs were often present at major annual festivals and rituals (e.g., the Opet), but most of the time he was present in the temples only figuratively.
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kat
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I see your point - it's de jure vs. de facto. Technically, Pharaoh was the only priest, but the reality was the priests ran the temples. Hence the Akenaten vs. Amun cult which ended in a backlash against all the cults.
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Nekht-Ankh
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
But by the New Kingdom there were temples devoted to the state gods from south of Aswan all the way into the Delta. It was impossible for Pharaoh to be present at all of these places. This is why there were such powerful high priests--they acted on Pharaoh's behalf in daily rituals.

And, perhaps more significantly, the high priest were powerful because they controlled a large proportion of Egypt's resources. O'Connor in Ancient Egypt a Social History estimates (presumably from the figures in Papyrus Harris) that at the end of the reign of Ramesses III the temples owned one third of the cultivable land and one fifth of the people.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...at the end of the reign of Ramesses III the temples owned one third of the cultivable land and one fifth of the people.


I've come across that figure before--it's amazing. And such power at the hands of priests is one reason Egyptologists believe the claims that the temple of Amun and other powerful, ***generating edifices were closed by Akhenaten during the Amarna Period. I once posed this question to an Egyptologist from the O.I. during a lecture I attended, and he explained it's unlikely Egypt could've maintained two state gods like Amun and the Aten at the same time; the revenue could not be thus split if both were to be adequately sustained. One could understand why a king would bristle at having to surrender such wealth willingly (albeit reluctantly).
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Chrismackint
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL Tutankhamun's "member" was not erect it was mummified horizontal not vertical!

The guy that examined Tut's mummy was very careless because in those days there were so many mummies in egypt and people didn't think they were of much importance-but because of modern forensic teachniques we now know they are extremely important and can tell us a lot...

Oh i was curious about what happened to his "member"...LOL i aways thought it might pop up in some meuseum one day in it's own glass case-i mean i'd go and have a look at it, wouldn't you?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh i was curious about what happened to his "member"...LOL i aways thought it might pop up in some meuseum one day in it's own glass case-i mean i'd go and have a look at it, wouldn't you?

Sorry, but you're out of luck! His "member" was found. It had just been dis-placed, and was discovered buried in the sand in the box in which Carter and his team had re-assembled the mummy. (to hide their ravaging of the mummy in search of gold!)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were actually articles about this in the media. One must wonder what Tutankhamun would think about so many people making such a fuss over his johnson.

Well, he was a guy, so I'd imagine he'd be quite flattered. Very Happy
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, he was a guy, so I'd imagine he'd be quite flattered

Hey, who wouldn't--if you're a guy. It's supposed to be REALLY important. Shocked
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for kicks I did a search on Yahoo for "Tut's penis found" and came up with more than 1,000 hits! Boy, you'd think this was the greatest "discovery" since the kid-king's tomb was found. Some of the results:

News in Science

Watcher Magazine

Poe News

History News Network

Discovery News

News for Perverts (No, I'm not kidding)

Plus numerous formus and chat boards, naturally.

Granted, all of these links seem to be the same article regurgitated over and over, but it shows an unusual interest in someone's ancient penis. You'd think the royal "member" itself should be on display in the current exhibition. Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

Thanks for the info you posted earlier about akhenaten-i always wondered what those things were on the akhenaten statues and now i know they are shu's feathers-thanks!
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rpvee
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Just imagine being so excited to be in the presense of Tut's mummy, and then in the sandbox you suddenly see this thing next to the mummy... Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Granted, all of these links seem to be the same article regurgitated over and over, but it shows an unusual interest in someone's ancient penis. You'd think the royal "member" itself should be on display in the current exhibition.


I remember hearing a story (probaby false) about a museum curator who was having terrible traffic control problems during a special Van Gogh Expedition.

In frustration, the curator made a sign pointing in the opposite direction.

The sign said this way to VAN GOGH'S EAR.

The line to the acutal paintings got cut in half as confused curiosity seekers wandered the museum in vain looking for Van Gogh's ear.

Imagine what King Tut's penis would do as a draw.
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