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kat
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kmt_Sesh wrote:

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There was no evidence in the photo of any sort of pylon gateway. Of course such a construct may have been there once, but was razed at some later time (by the Coptic period, for instance). LOL Or it could be that Aswad just didn't include enough of the area in the photograph.


First, before I forget, thank you for the fast reply. Smile

I'm afaid I wasn't clear in my question, but you answered it anyway! You're good, very good!

I meant that the pylon-style gateway wasn't a seperate feature of these later, small temples, but rather formed part of the wall, framing the doorway. The just looked like the larfe pylons of bgger temples.

I don't usually get jealous, but I'm really starting to be jealous of all the wonderful things like lectures, etc. that you have access to. Smile
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eye_of_horus
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused, I think I might've missed soemthing... What do you mean by a pylon-style gateway?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eye_of_horus wrote:
I'm confused, I think I might've missed soemthing... What do you mean by a pylon-style gateway?

I don't know if this is what's being referred to, but the pylons are the enterance to the temple. Here's something from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylon_(architecture)

Quote:
Pylon is the Greek term for a monumental gate or door built in front of an Egyptian temple. It consists of two towers and the entrance between them, which is generally about half the height of the towers. Contemporary paintings of pylons show them with long poles flying banners.

In ancient Egyptian temples, the Pylon is the gateway to the inner part. Pylons are often embellished with pictures. On the first Pylon of the temple of Isis at Philae, the pharaoh is shown slaying his enemies while Isis, Horus and Hathor look on.

Here's a picture of the Philae temple from a distance : Philae, and here's a close-up of the pylons showing the pharaoh's smiting scene : (bottom left-hand corner of the pylon)...I don't see 'Isis, Horus, and Hathor looking on,' though. Idea
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That second photo in Daughter_Of_SETI's links is a good example of a temple pylon, albeit much larger than what would've stood before the old temple in Aswad's village. Many small temples were built in the Sudan, as kat stated, but they didn't necessarily all have pylons. Many of those that did stand before these temples were quite small.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok thanks for the links Daughter of Seti.
The gates make sense now.

Kmt sesh, the temples that did have pylons in villages in Sudan, was it more because they adopted it from architectural styles from ther places around them?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Kmt sesh, the temples that did have pylons in villages in Sudan, was it more because they adopted it from architectural styles from ther places around them?


Yes, probably so, eye_of_horus. I can't say why one small temple might have pylons and another of equal size might not, however.

The pylon gateways were a common feature to the temples of ancient Egypt. I don't ever want to be so simplistic as to say the Nubians "copied" the Egyptian culture and architectural styles and such, because the Nubians were a vibrant and distincitve culture in their own right. However, they did adapt a number of Egyptian conventions for their own uses. And of course many of the Nubian temples were built by Egyptians farther back in time, when Egypt controlled the Sudan, so it's likely many temples were taken over by the Nubians when Egyptian control waned.
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kat
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't it the 25th Dynasty or so, that the Nubians ruled in Egypt? (Pharaoh Tarhaqua? etc.) The Nubians wanted to return Egypt to its past glories, and became 'more' Egyptian than the Egyptians themselves! They were so successful in copying the ancient canon of art, that it often takes an expert to date these archaisizing works. Besides the influence in Egypt proper, they also brought Egyptian styles to Nubia, including a version of the most landmark feature of Egypt, the pyramids.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kat wrote:
Wasn't it the 25th Dynasty or so, that the Nubians ruled in Egypt? (Pharaoh Tarhaqua? etc.) The Nubians wanted to return Egypt to its past glories, and became 'more' Egyptian than the Egyptians themselves! They were so successful in copying the ancient canon of art, that it often takes an expert to date these archaisizing works. Besides the influence in Egypt proper, they also brought Egyptian styles to Nubia, including a version of the most landmark feature of Egypt, the pyramids.

Yeah, it was the 25th dynasty. The Nubians must've had a lot of love for Egypt, even though by then Egypt had taken advantage of the Nubians for many years. As far as I know the Nubian kings mostly took their influences from the New Kingdom (where they incorprated many of their titles into their own names; I think they used mostly the Thutmosside ones), and the Old Kingdom (with the pyramids, which you already mentioned). They did mix a little of their own culture in with the already well established Egyptian one, as Piankhy - the founder of the 25th dynasty - was laid to rest at el-Kurru on a bed over a stone bench; which was likely to have been an old Nubian tradition. His burial also contained remnants of broken Ushabtis and Canopic Jars. Even after there were no-longer Nubian kings on the Egyptian throne, the Nubian pyramid building tradition continued until AD 350!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive heard of pyramids in nubia being near Moroe? i forgot what the place was called...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cleopatra_selene wrote:
ive heard of pyramids in nubia being near Moroe? i forgot what the place was called...

The pyramid site that you're thinking of is called Meroƫ. Wink

The first Nubian pyramids were at el-Kurru, though. Kashta and his son, Pianky were buried at el-Kurru, and the pyramids continued to be built at this site until Taharqa whom had his pyramid built at Nuri. Tanutamun, Taharqa's son, had his pyramid built back at el-Kurru, but after that they were built at Nuri. The Nuri pyramids were generally much larger than the ones at el-Kurru. The pyramids were then built in Meroƫ; the first major Nubian king who was buried there was called, Arkamaniqo. The pyramids continued there until AD 350.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The great philologist Walter Emerson was the first to decipher the mysterious Meroitic script, which was based on Egyptian hieroglyphs. His young nephew was also quite adept at the Nubian glyphs.

Daughter_Of_SETI will know what I mean, but the rest of you are probably wondering, What in the hell is he talking about? Laughing

Actually the Meroitic script has never been deciphered, aside from names. In their retreat from Egypt under the advancing Assyrians, the Nubians looted many Egyptian sites and brought back scores of artifacts. These have been found in Nubian tombs.

Kat is right about the influence the Kushite kings had on Egyptian art. It was reflected across the spectrum of Egyptian culture, including funerary. Take, for instance, this Dynasty 25 coffin at the Field Museum:



It was modelled on coffin styles dating all the way back to Dynasty 12, in the Middle Kingdom. The conquering Sudanese restored grand art styles that were archaic and nostalgic. These Middle Kingdom coffins were mostly white, with a colored collar and head, to represent the mummified body; in Dynasty 25 we see the same type of coffin but it's now covered with ornamentation and texts, many of which contain excerpts from the Book of the Dead.

There was one point in Aswad Abdelgadir's lively lecture and slide show that he was talking about the "bed burials" Daughter_Of_SETI mentioned. Right then I got distracted by a friend who thought it appropriate to start whispering to me about the latest escapades of her teenaged daughter, so I missed a few seconds of the lecture. That was at the point where I could've sworn Aswad said bed burials still take place in Nubia, but I'm not sure if I heard him right. I'm still wondering about it. Mad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I could've sworn Aswad said bed burials still take place in Nubia, but I'm not sure if I heard him right. I'm still wondering about it


they still take place! that would be amazing if they still did..they would kind of be like the coptic people who still somewhat continue the traditions of AE..
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snippets of ancient Egyptian culture appear in all levels of modern Egypt, including Islam. This is also true of ancient Nubian traditions and modern Nubia. I once met a professor from the Sudan who, despite being a devout Muslim, explained ancient traditions in their wedding ceremonies that involve the Nile and other rituals. Pity that I can't remember the details, but the people from Egypt and Sudan seem to enjoy pointing out these cultural ties with ancient times.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Snippets of ancient Egyptian culture appear in all levels of modern Egypt, including Islam


really? i thought only the coptic people did such stuff...yeah i wish u remembered those details ..it would have been cool...question: do archeologists/ egyptologists use such rites that are still being practiced to help them understand the ancient culture?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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...question: do archeologists/ egyptologists use such rites that are still being practiced to help them understand the ancient culture?


That's a very good question, cleopatra_selene. To a degree this is indeed true, although the folks doing the studies would be cultural anthropologists. They can take what they've learned from modern rituals and extrapolate their data to apply it to what's known from ancient sources, and then find similarities and differences. I'm more familiar with this practice in the study of Native American rituals than I am with ancient Egypt, but the same sort of criteria must apply.
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