Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

mummy of hatshepsut
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9296

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: mummy of hatshepsut Reply with quote

There was some news about the identification of the mummy of Hatshepsut in the media, and the EEF mailing list provided some great summaries.

Some background: Two mummies were found in KV60, the tomb of Sitre called In, the royal wetnurse of Queen Hatshepsut. In the EEF news bulletin they used MCa (Mummy now in Cairo Museum) and MFl (Mummy initially left on the floor of KV60).

In the past Elizabeth Thomas and Donald Ryan suggested that MFl was the mummy of Queen Hatshepsut. She had one of her arms in what is sometimes referred to as a "queenly pose".
Zawi Hawass has recently suggested that MCa is actually the mummy of Queen Hatshepsut.

According to the news bulletins some study is being conducted (I'm not sure what kind of study / examination).

Hawass wrote an article in the KMT journal recently. There were some nice photographs of MCa.

At first I thought the arguments were rather flimsy (my personal opinion).

But from what I read in the EEF news there are now some arguments appearing in the arabic news that show some (IMHO) more compelling evidence.

Quote:
-- MFl fits perfectly in the wetnurse's coffin in Cairo Museum,
contrary to MCa. So MFl is the wetnurse.
-- MCa has a broken tooth, and a tooth (or part thereof) found
at Dayr al-Bahri in a canopic jar with the name of Hatshepsut on it,
matches MCa's broken tooth perfectly. So MCa is Hatshepsut.


Hawass is supposed to present the findings of the examinations in the near future.

One of my initial questions had been: Why are we assuming that one of the two HAS to be Hatshepsut? But the broken tooth argument would go a long way toward making that identification a lot more likely I think.

I'm rather curious if we will be able to glean more info about that time period from info from the mummy of Hatshepsut if positively identified.

How old was she when she died?
What did she die of?
Was she given a pharaonic burial or had Tuthmosis already down graded her status right after her death?
Any evidence of multiple births?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Diorite
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 210
Location: Land of Make-Believe

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, I had just read about this tomb in "The Complete Valley of the Kings". When you mentioned it, I went back and reviewed what they said about it.

The tomb was first found by Howard Carter, reburied, and found by Edward Ayrton. Carter's report was that the tomb contained two denuded mummies of women and some mummified geese.

The book reports that Ayrton removed the mummy of Sitre In, wet nurse of Hatshepsut, to the Cairo museum. The text is unclear whether she was identified as Sitre In before removal or after.

The other mummy was found near the center of the burial chamber. This woman's mummy had the right arm crossed over her breast in a queenly pose. She had long hair (which had come off but was under her head) and was obese. She had well-worn teeth indicating that she was "older".
The mummy was eviscerated through the pelvic floor. Elizabeth Thomas is listed as the first to suggest the mummy was Hatshepsut.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Iufaa
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

neither MCa nor MFI had been identified yet, only the coffin in which MCa was found was inscribed for the royal nurse Sat-Ra. So Ayrton suggested that the lady in the coffin was Sat-Ra. At that time Sat-Ra was already known as the wet-nurse of Hatshepsut but that´s all.

As Donald P. Ryan wrote in kmt, 1990, KV60 was a high-status burial but inscribed objects were very rare. The "Complete Valley of the Kings" reported that there were no pottery fragments that could be dated before the 20th Dynasty so the dating of the tomb was a problem at all. But the OIC reports on its website (http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/ar/95-96/is_wente.html) that Wente has checked some inscribe fragments Ryan had found during his excavations of KV60 - one of it allows a dating into the reign of Hatshepsut.

So we have to wait for Zahi's arguments and see what he has investigated so far.

Iufaa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kevin
Admin/Admun/Admen
Admin/Admun/Admen


Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 1108
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin note: This was sent to me by Donald Ryan. He tried to post it himself but for some reason the spam filters wouldn't allow it. I've posted it for Donald here at his request.

Greetings.

This is Donald Ryan. I rediscovered and documented KV 60 in the Valley of
the Kings in 1989. I'd like to offer some clarifications on the
discussion here. First, some history:

The tomb, by location and style, appears to be early to mid-18th Dynasty.
It was cut at the back of a gully as was the practice then (I excavated in
front of the tomb in 1990 and verified this.) During the 20th dynasty,
the entranceway to the tomb of Mentuherkhepshef (KV 19) was cut right
across the top of the tomb into the rock-spur behind. If the tomb had
been in use by that time, it would have been encountered, and perhaps
robbed by the workmen then.

Howard Carter discovered the tomb in the spring of 1903. He seemed to
find it rather uninteresting and closed it up. Here's his brief report as
recorded in the Annales du Service des Antiquités de L'Égypte 4
(1903):176-177 :

"A small uninscribed tomb. immediately in the entrance of no 19 (tomb of
Ment-hi-khopesh-ef). It consists of a very rough flight of. steps leading
down to a passage of 5 metres long, ending in a low and rough square
chamber, about 4 x 5 metres, which contained the remains of a much
destroyed and rifled burial. Nothing was in this tomb but two much denuded
mummies of women and some mummied geese. One of the mummies was lying in
the lower portion of its coffin (lid missing), the other on the floor
beside it. Their heads were fairly well preserved and had long hair of a
golden colour. I should say that they must have been elderly people. The
burial had probably been robbed by the workmen when making the tomb of
Ment-hi-khopesh-ef. The portion of the coffin containing the mummy had
been stripped of its outer moulding, possibly on account of its being
gilded, and the only inscription of value that could be made out has the
following name and titles: (hieroglyphs with name and title of the royal
nurse, "In").
Mr. Newberry was present at the opening, and he thinks that possibly
these were the mummies of the nurses of Thouthmes IV. I reclosed the tomb,
only removing the mummies of geese."

Note: it was only later that the name on the coffin was identified with
the specific "Sitre called In" who is known from other sources as the
wet-nurse of Hatshepsut, thus associating KV 60 with Hatshepsut.
Newberry's suggestion that these might be nurses of Thutmose IV has to do
with proximity to his tomb (KV 43) which had just recently been discovered
by Carter in January 1903. Hatshepsut's tomb (KV 20) is equally close but
KV 20 was not firmly identified with her until excavations by Howard
Carter began later that year and not confirmed until after the long,
difficult process of reaching the burial chamber which contained her
sarcophagus.

As his report notes, Carter closed KV 60 leaving most everything inside.

As far as Ayrton is considered, we only know of his visit to KV 60
indirectly. He cleared KV 19 in 1906 and would likely have encountered KV
60 in its entranceway at that time. There are no known notes regarding
this nor do we have comments or opinions by him about the tomb. We only
know of Ayrton's probable visit to KV 60 from a note in the Egyptian
Museum register which suggests that it was Ayrton who retrieved the coffin
and mummy which has remained in storage there until its recent
examination. So, c.1906, one mummy in a coffin with the name of a royal
nurse was taken from the tomb to Cairo, and the other remained in KV 60,
which was reburied and whose exact location was lost.

In her monumental study of the Valley of the Kings ("The Royal Necropoleis
of Thebes", 1966 p.138), Egyptologist Elizabeth Thomas wrote, "Of the
second mummy nothing can be said without examination. It is merely
possible to ask a question with utmost temerity: did Thutmose III inter
Hatshepsut intrusively in this simple tomb below her own?" Thomas,
therefore, was the first to link the second mummy (the one found on the
floor) with Hatshepsut.

In 1989, I quickly rediscovered KV 60 on my first day ever of work in the
Valley. (I won't retell that tale right now.I believe it's published in
the very first issue of KMT Magazine.) We found a lot of things in the
tomb, including the second mummy which by its pose and quality of
mummification suggested royalty. The tomb was completely undecorated and
we found nothing that might positively identify the mummy as one specific
person or another. Given that the only extant hypothesis about this mummy
was that offered cautiously by Elizabeth Thomas, we cited her idea as a
possibility, but concluded that what we had found was insufficient to make
firm statements. Among other things, though, we found the smashed remains
of a once gold-gilded coffin face-piece that had a notch for a beard,
suggesting a male (?) or royal association which would be curious in the
tomb of two women, especially if they were both nurses; that is, not royal
personages

Pottery from the tomb is puzzling. We found fragments of a mid-18th
dynasty jar with the name of overseer of the granary, Minmose, an
individual known from the reign of Hatshepsut. But most of the other
pottery seems to date to the 20th dynasty. One could suggest that the
tomb may have been violated or used as a storeroom during the construction
of KV 19 at that time.

Back to the mummies:
My original idea was that KV 60 was carved by Hatshepsut near her own tomb
(KV 20) for the burial of her beloved nurse, Sitre-In. It would, then,
most likely be the first tomb in the Valley for a non-royal ("private")
individual. It's possible that the second mummy, the one we found on the
floor when we rediscovered the tomb, is intrusive. Is it possible that
this mummy is Hatshepsut? When her nearby tomb was robbed, was her mummy
cached with her royal nurse? It's possible, but I can't prove it with the
evidence I have. Could the one in Sitre's coffin be Hatshepsut? Some
think a reasonable case can be made for that. Could both mummies be royal
and the Sitre coffin only "borrowed" for use in a reburial? Perhaps.
Could KV 60 actually be a royal cache? Could neither mummy be royal?
These are fascinating questions that I cannot answer.

Fortunately, Zahi Hawass recently has taken some major steps to address
these questions. Both of the KV 60 mummies are in Cairo now and are
being examined in various clever ways that very well might shed light on
these questions. Although I'm not directly involved in this work, I
understand that Zahi is doing a very good job and the results, whatever
they might be, should be quite intriguing. I'm sure he'll make an
announcement when he's ready. From what I understand, his results will be
detailed in an upcoming special program on the Discovery Channel:

"Secrets of Egypt's Lost Queen", debuting in the U.K. on July 17th.
http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/egypt/pharoahs/hatshepsut/index.shtml

I was involved with bits of it last Fall (we visited the remote tomb of
Neferure, Hatshepsut's daughter, etc.) and it should be a very good.

By the way, a couple of pictures of KV 60 and the mummy therein can be
found on my web-site:
www.plu.edu/~ryandp
click on "Egyptian archaeology"

Also, we hope to finish our work on this tomb (along with KV 21, 27, 28,
44, and 45) this year and perhaps have our formal publication available
next year. This will include photos, plans, catalogue of objects, etc.)


Donald P. Ryan, Ph.D.
Division of Humanities
Pacific Lutheran University
Tacoma, Washington 98447 USA
_________________
"Man fears Time - but Time fears the pyramids" - Old Egyptian saying
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Diorite
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 210
Location: Land of Make-Believe

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information! It was very interesting and informative.

Good luck on your work this year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9296

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for sharing that information with us.

The tv program sounds like a "must see"
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 397

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kevin,

Could you please ask Dr. Ryan if I may have permission to post his comments elsewhere? Thank you!

kat newkirk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was very interesting to read and I'm glad Dr. Ryan contributed to the discussion. It was very kind of him. I'm also looking forward to the television special and to learning more about the findings of the KV60 mummies.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Smartie
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 250
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mummy of Female Pharaoh Found?

Idea
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, let's keep our eyes open for that press release. This has come sooner than I expected it would, so I look forward to hearing about the results. Smile
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tadukhipa
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The poll on the program's website ( http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/egypt/pharoahs/hatshepsut/index.shtml ) is so cute! Laughing Apparently Nefertiti was actually a pharaoh. (If the Discovery Channel says so it must be true!) Rolling Eyes
_________________
*Tadukhipa*

http://strictlybecca
.blog
spot
.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daughter_Of_SETI
Divine Adoratrice


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 2558
Location: Hull, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tadukhipa wrote:
Apparently Nefertiti was actually a pharaoh. (If the Discovery Channel says so it must be true!)

I thought that there was some recognised theories that Nefertiti may have reigned later in Akhenaten's reign as a pharaoh, or that she may have become a pharaoh after Akhenaten's reign under a different name. Idea
_________________


In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this - Terry Pratchett.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dachief
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to UK' BBC's Ceefax, Hawass today confirmed that they had found Hatepshuts mummy. That's all the info from the Beeb, but Hawass has posted all the info on his own web site The Plateau.I would post the link, but I'm not sure I'm allowed
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Neferseshat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daughter_Of_SETI wrote:
tadukhipa wrote:
Apparently Nefertiti was actually a pharaoh. (If the Discovery Channel says so it must be true!)

I thought that there was some recognised theories that Nefertiti may have reigned later in Akhenaten's reign as a pharaoh, or that she may have become a pharaoh after Akhenaten's reign under a different name. Idea


I watched the programme in Discovery channel, it was by Dr. J Fletcher.

She proposed that Nefertiti ruled Egypt after Akhenaten under the name of Smenkare.

But, isn't it already prove that they were different persons?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9296

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just noticed the news on the internet.
Apparently the mummy left on the floor of KV60 has been identified as Hatshepsut. So the mummy in the coffin may really be the wetnurse.

See:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/27/africa/ME-GEN-Egypt-Lost-Queen.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/egypt/story/0,,2112583,00.html

Some interesting quotes:
Quote:
The mummy identified as Hatshepsut shows an obese woman, who died in her 50s, probably had diabetes and is also believed to have had liver cancer, Hawass said. But her left hand is positioned against her chest, in a traditional sign of royalty in ancient Egypt.


Died in her 50's. Looks like there's a chance she died of natural causes (cancer, diabetes).
If she died at ca 50 years, then she became a regent for Tuthmosis at ca 28. That means she married Tuthmosis II at ca 15 or 16 years of age.

Interesting ....
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group