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Why no excavation?
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Silaku Nasuwt
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Why no excavation? Reply with quote

They know theres a chamber under the Sphinx right? So why aren't they excavating it? Is it money? Is it one of those dumb preservation things? Or are they just lazy?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was extensive work done on the Sphinx several years ago. The closely examined the Sphinx and the area surrounding it, and no chambers or any man-made tunnels were to be found. A smaller tunnel, that dead-ended at a stone wall was discovered, but, obviously, had been entered some time ago--a cigarette wrapper, a boot and a newspaper from the 1920's was discovered.
But the rumour of a chamber still pops up. Ground searching radar has even been used to prove that there is nothing, but people will not believe its results.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK who said that there is a secret hall under the Sphinx was the psychic Edgar Cayce who claimed he had visit the hall with his "astral body" for being initiated there in the Ancient Mysteries by an Ancient Egyptian hierophant.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
AFAIK who said that there is a secret hall under the Sphinx was the psychic Edgar Cayce who claimed he had visit the hall with his "astral body" for being initiated there in the Ancient Mysteries by an Ancient Egyptian hierophant.


Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Oh dear. One nutcase gets the ball rolling and a lot of innocent and well-intentioned people are crushed underneath it. Rather inelegantly put, I admit, but you get my meaning.

I've read about the tests with the ground-penetrating radar Osiris II mentioned, and I understand the most they suspect down there is the occasional natural, small pocket or void. So there's one thing we can all agree with Zahi Hawass: there are no hidden chambers or secret libraries underneath the Sphinx.
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bastetmax
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just there with John Anthony West. He and Dr. Robert Schoch were there with the ground-penetrating radar team. He says they absolutely found a large cavity under the Sphinx that is about as big as a room. Whether it's natural or not, he does not know, but he says Zahi Hawass refuses to investigate it.

He's not a nut and as he put it, "Everyone talks about channelers and such, but radar does not channel." Many people put some pretty fanciful questions to him about a hidden Hall of Records, but he doesn't get into that. He said all he knows is that there is a cavity that large under the Sphinx and no one will let them excavate it.

We also did see the hole down to the rear-end cavity of the Sphinx. It's blocked off to the public. West said he's been down there and it just dead-ends, much like a tunnel in the pit below the Great Pyramid.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anytime I start to read an article that seems a bit interesting, the moment Schoch and West are mentioned, I immediately think--"Oh, one of those over-the-top ideas" and toss the article out.
Schock and West have done more to set back the intelligent, educated lovers of Egypt and her history than any other. Their work has gone beyond laughable to pathetic.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not at all the impression I got. Schoch's work is well regarded in the field of geology. His credentials are impeccable. And he doesn't go for any new idea tossed his way. When Graham Hancock had him look at a pyramidal formation off of Japan, Schoch dove underwater and pronounced it a natural formation.

West, despite what people say about him, is extremely intelligent and hard-headed. He doesn't listen to mystics, channelers, and people who talk about aliens. He just looks at the science and asks questions that stir people up. I think we need more gadflies like this. Even Zahi Hawass, who discount West's theories, remains a good friend of West and invites him to Egyptological events. He clearly has respect for West's background. You don't have to have a Ph.D. to know a great deal about Egypt.

Why are you so quick to pronounce them as quacks? Schoch has done his homework and West has spent his entire career investigating Egypt. They aren't loony tunes like Sitchen, who thinks aliens built Egypt's pyramids.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always admit that Schoch is a trained geologist. Both he and West are intelligent men. However, bastetmax, you have to be careful with the hype these two men pour out. They're very crafty.

On West's web page, for example, he opens with the line "Author, lecturer, and guide, John Anthony West delivered a seismic shock to archaeology..." He would like all of us to think that his and Schoch's work have altered our perceptions of history, but it simply has not.

Even you have written that most geologists back Schoch. They do not. I don't know of any who support Schoch's and West's claims. Perhaps this is true in some other work Schoch has done with geology, but when it comes to the Great Sphinx Schock is not taken seriously by his colleagues.

Quote:
I think we need more gadflies like this.


Gadflies are welcome. But if their theories do not follow the path of extant evidence and scientific method, their theories will not be considered. Schoch and West ignore mountains of other evidence already long proved by other scientists and historians, and this is one of the primary reasons they are not taken seriously by the scientific and historical community.
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bastetmax
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said on the other topic of the Sphinx, I don't intend to have an argument. We can respectfully agree to disagree.

I like this group a lot and intend to keep it that way. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing But it's in our nature to argue.

In all seriousness, bastetmax, one of the reasons I so enjoy Egyptian Dreams and am a Moderator here is that it's one of the most conservative and scholarly Egyptian forums on the internet. Nearly all of us follow a very orthodox approach to historical research.

As I'm sure you know, neither Schoch nor West are considered orthodox, so when they're brought up, people such as I will argue against them. It's part of debating. I sure don't mind a lively debate but I also don't like it to turn hostile or negative. Just the same, I call 'em like I see 'em. Very Happy
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bastetmax
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, I know.

However, I've had so many Internet arguments in the past--some really heated--and they always amount to nothing but angry feelings. Sometimes they resulted in people quitting the group in anger. That sort of thing doesn't lead to understanding at all.
I had one argument on a mailing list about the Egyptian practice of wearing wigs. The members absolutely would not believe me about the lice problem, no matter that I cited several sources--some being academic papers! One guy summed up his resistance to my argument with this: "I've been to Egypt and I never saw a bald Egyptian." What the heck?

And I was arguing the *orthodox* side to this issue.

So, you see, I get nothing out of these debates and just like to keep things friendly. Anyway, I joined the group for info about the God's Wives of Amun, and that's a traditional topic that no one is going to have wild ideas about.

Hope that explains it. I've just been around the (Internet) block too many times with arguments and I don't have the energy for them anymore.

Really, I respect your opinion.

Lynn Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The members absolutely would not believe me about the lice problem, no matter that I cited several sources--some being academic papers!


Gees, you're kidding. Shocked That's common knowledge--Egyptology 101. Egyptians despised vermin (particularly lice) which is one of the principle reasons they shaved, especially if they had an important temple or palace affiliation.

Quote:
One guy summed up his resistance to my argument with this: "I've been to Egypt and I never saw a bald Egyptian." What the heck?


#Rofl Oh boy, that's too much! What, did this guy expect to see royals riding chariots or kilted soldiers walking around with their khepesh swords? One thing about being part of a discussion group like that: lots of laughs! Frustration, too, but laughs a-plenty.

Quote:
Hope that explains it. I've just been around the (Internet) block too many times with arguments and I don't have the energy for them anymore.


Oh yeah, I know what you mean. I used to take part with the Yahoo message boards but they were little more than a bunch of crass people insulting one another. I belong to another forum where people argue for and against alternative historical theories and it can get heated there, and sometimes I have to walk away because it can be so negative.

That's another reason I prefer Egyptian Dreams: we might have some lively debates and once in a while things heat up, but the people here are decent and rarely resort to mockery or personal insults against the people with whom they are discussing a subject. If people do get insulting toward one another anneke and/or I always try to step in as quickly as possible to calm things down, and it nearly always works. For those people who refuse to exercise restraint and respect, well...they get banned. It's happened more than once in my own time here.

I know I can come on strong and I realize I was pretty hard on Schoch and West, but I hope it didn't seem like I was personally attacking you, bastetmax. If it seemed that way, I offer my sincere apologies. I respect your passion and mature, upbeat attitude. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow I missed this until today.

I actually communicated with West and he says he's used to getting slammed all over the Internet, so... He just wants all of you to know the geo-panel he plans *will* include people who don't agree with Schoch, and it will include Zahi Hawass. He said he'll let them all duke it out and come to a conclusion. Really, it sounds like fun and I hope he does that.

No, I didn't take your rebuttal personally. It obviously was aimed at Schoch and West.
Having traveled with West and having learned so much from him (he's a lot more traditional than you think), I felt I had to defend him. But I'm not going to get into each and every issue he brings up.

I do like this board because it isn't full of loonies. My lord, some of the mailing lists on Yahoo have been just a nest of crazies. One guy was discussing "kites" in an Egyptian text and he thought the A.E.'s had actual, flying, wood-and-paper kites! We tried to explain to him that kites are a type of bird, but he was having none of it. He kept saying that the A.E.'s used kites to raise stones, etc. This is the sort of thing I'm trying to avoid.

Lynn
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I actually communicated with West and he says he's used to getting slammed all over the Internet...


I suppose he's had to develop a pretty thick skin. His theory is pretty wild from my own perspective, but it's certainly not as loony as many that are out there. I often lump Schoch and West together and from what I understand Schoch has come up with some crazy stuff, so maybe West is more level headed.

Quote:
He just wants all of you to know the geo-panel he plans *will* include people who don't agree with Schoch, and it will include Zahi Hawass. He said he'll let them all duke it out and come to a conclusion.


It's a point in West's favor that he's including people from mainstream science. I'm sure he will find people who back his theory but don't be surprised if the greater body of science dismisses it. I've read quite a few articles of geologists so I could better understand for myself the geology of the Plateau, and I've yet to come across one who supports Schoch or West. You've mentioned that West and Hawass are friends, which kind of surprises me. Hawass tends to be very direct and blunt in dismissing alternative theories.

Quote:
One guy was discussing "kites" in an Egyptian text and he thought the A.E.'s had actual, flying, wood-and-paper kites! We tried to explain to him that kites are a type of bird, but he was having none of it. He kept saying that the A.E.'s used kites to raise stones, etc.


Laughing Wow, you've come across some doozies out there! Are these Yahoo mailing lists the same place where you found the people arguing over lice and wigs (the guy who said he's never seen a bald Egyptian)? How do these mailing lists work? I'm tempted to take a closer look at them because I enjoy debating, as you probably know.

But the kites argument is great. LOL I know the guy to whom you're referring isn't arguing this, but now I'm picturing a bunch of small falcons tethered to 2.5-ton stones and trying to fly them up onto the Great Pyramid. Don't be afraid of me--this is just how my imagination works. Razz

I think I know where this guy got his mistaken argument from, however. You've probably heard of it, too. Some time ago there was an alternative theory kicking around that the Egyptians used sails and wind power to lift the stones into place on the pyramid, so he was probably confusing "kites" and sails. Still, that's just too funny.
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bastetmax
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, they were all Yahoo groups, but I can't remember the names of them. The Kite Guy had never heard of that theory of winged sails and kites lifting rocks because he was really, really stupid. He thought he came up with this all by himself. We never convinced him that kites were birds.

He posed as a physics professor until we outed him as a night instructor at a community college! He also said he was an author of a book on Egypt, and it turned out to be vanity press.

They are all over the place. I usually stay around for laughs for a while, then I have to unsubscribe when I can't stand it anymore. Although, I'm still a bit miffed about the people who wouldn't accept the lice/wigs argument, because that's so basic to understanding the people. I went through a careful discussion of how lice can't live without a human host and they just kept saying that then they'd live in the wigs. I'd tell them that the wigs had no blood supply. It just went on and on. They never got it.

Ugh. Enough of this. Like the snow? I didn't.
Sad
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