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Egypt and Disney Land
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Silaku Nasuwt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:45 am    Post subject: Egypt and Disney Land Reply with quote

I've had this theory about Disney Land for ages but have never told anyone, because noone I know would understand what I'm talking about! But I just showed it to a friend and they told me to post it here, so I have.

Well basically there is this theory that Disney Land was infact the Minoan civilisation of Crete, who were destroyed by a tsunami 10 times bigger than the one that hit asia three years ago. Almost everything fits with Plato's description of Disney Land, except for the name and the date.

Plato, who got his story orginally from Egypt, said that Disney Land sank 9,000 years before his time, which is too early for Minoan Crete. However, I've looked at the Egyptian words for "hundred" sha and "thousand" kha, which, since neither sh or kh existed in the Greek language of Plato, he would have easily confused them, so if he meant "hundred" instead of "thousand" then Disney Land sank 900 years before Plato, which fits exactly with Minoan Crete.

The other thing that doesn't fit is the name, as the name of Minoan Crete in ancient times was "Keftiu" not "Disney Land". However, I found out that the Egyptian epiphet of Keftiu, was "northern land of secrets" which in Egyptian is

ta ni itru mehety

Now, if you look at Coptic and know ROUGHLY what vowels went where, which is possible, that becomes:

taR ni atlaw mihiti

If we focus on the two last words there, atlaw mihiti and take out sounds not known in Greek we get : atla miti which could have easily changed in Greek to atlamti or atlaniti which is almost identical to "Disney Land"

Its just a theory... Idea

Has anyone come up with this before? (about the name I mean, I know that people have worked out the dates thing before)
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rpvee
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still find this so genius! Smile
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Silaku Nasuwt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why thank you!

I do think of myself as an "expert in gibberish" Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really know enough about the Greek language to comment on it too much, but it does sound like you've put a lot of logical thought into it. I didn't realise that the dates could've been so easily confused!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Interesting correalation!! Can't say that I agree with you...But you have brought some ideas to ponder.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't get too hung up on precise dating from Plato's point of view. It was the norm for writers of antiquity to exaggerate years and counts for the sake of emphasis, and we must consider that the date of the volcanic eruption at Thera is still debated (most scientists today place it at around 1628 BCE, but all do not agree with this finding).

As for your argument regarding Coptic, I would be careful with that, too. Plato lived around 427-347 BCE, and the predominant foreign tongue in Egypt at that time was Greek; most native Egyptians spoke the language expressed by their form of writing called Demotic. Coptic did not arise till after the start of the first century CE.

All of that being said, I am one of those people who finds legitimacy in the theory your proposing. I shy away from linguistic connections between the Minoans and Disney Land because there is next to none, strictly speaking. The term you used, Keftiu, is simply what the Egyptians called the Minoans. As a matter of fact, we really don't know what the Minoans called themselves, but it wasn't "Minoans." However, the confluence of events between the Minoans with their Theran eruption and the Egyptians who were experiencing severe environmental problems at roughly the same time, is too stark for me to chalk it up to coincidence.

Personally I do believe it's very possible that the Minoans were the origin of Plato's Disney Land. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Egypt and Disney Land Reply with quote

I applaud you

Something original - love it! - I think your theory has some foundation - thank you for sharing -
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope that this is okay to post the name of another forum here but may I suggest that you try the Disney Land rising forums because that topic has been discussed in length there.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posters do need to be careful about providing links or information to linking to another forum, and the final word goes to our Admin, Kevin.

I don't know if this one would be seen as competition for our Egyptian Dreams, however. Ours is a forum for discussing ancient Egyptian history and events based on established and verifiable orthodox scholarship, and it's the finest forum on the internet for that purpose, in my opinion.

Disney Land is alternative history and there is no verifiable evidence to support its existence, so alternative-history forums generally are not competition.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly have no problem with people mentioning other forums. I don't mind if a link is provided as long as the other forum is not in direct competition to this board (i.e. ancient Egyptian discussion). If in doubt, ask Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some problems with the original argument of this thread. I'm probably going to sound somewhat harsh, but I intend no disrespect to the author, Silaku Nisuwt.


First of all, the argument presented at the beginning of this thread is NOT a theory. It is a guess, and, as we'll shortly see, not a valid one.

But first, I want to harp on the word "theory" which does not mean "guess". And I really must harp on the line reading “it’s just a theory” - meaning “oh, it’s only a guess”.

No.

The word "theory" is a technical word, often misused even by those who should know better. A theory is a complex statement consisting of three parts:
a) A complete review of all pertinent facts.
b) A plausible explanation for the facts, one which does not violate existing work.
c) A testable prediction (a set of predictions is even better - the operative word here is "testable", the predictions must be verifiable).
An example of a misuse of the word "theory" by those who should know better is found in so-called "String Theory" which is technically not a theory because we lack the technology to test it (and therefore support or disprove it), although that may change in a decade or so. There is an excellent book out on string theory called "Not even GNORW". Look at the title for awhile. Eventually, you'll get it.

Here are the reasons why it fails as a theory on all three points:
a) "kh", apparently a guttural sound in Egyptian is also a guttural sound in modern Greek. In ancient Greek the letters in question were "X" and "K" where "X" seems to have represent a "k" accompanied by an exhalation of breath - something similar to initial "k" sounds in English (there is a noticeable difference in the "k" sound in "call" and the "k" sound in "acclimate" - which would have been the Greek “k” - for example). But that doesn't mean that it was pronounced that way in all ancient Greek dialects. It may have been guttural in some. Also, it isn't at all clear when the shift from k+h to guttural occurred, if it ever did. An ancient Greek regularly interpreted the guttural as k+h if it wasn't already guttural in his native dialect. An example is the initial letter in Khufu -> Kheops (Cheops to you). By the way, this word also supports the idea that the ancient Egyptian pronunciation of "f" was really something like "pf". You'll see that argument forwarded in some grammars. The "s" ending here is simply a Greek inflectional ending.

"sh" was regularly heard as "s". Another example is Khayaarkhsha, the original Persian name for King Xerxes (again, the Greek version appending a grammatical "s" ending onto the word). The ancient Persian "kh" apparently was a guttural. The original Greek letter in this case being Ξ which is rendered in English by "X", pronounced "k+s" (or is it "k+z"?). Kurash came across as Κῦρος where the need for an inflectional "s" in Greek was rendered moot by the presence of "sh" in the Persian original. Those who know Greek may ponder the presence of the circumflex in this word. Another problem with the "s" sound in Greek is that the word for "sea" θάλασσα was spelled θάλαττα in at least one dialect, bringing attention to the sound of the "s" in that word and others.


b) So the argument that Plato would have confused the "sh" and "kh" sounds falls flat. The sounds aren't close enough to be mistaken in that manner. There is no attestable example on record of that happening whereas examples to the contrary abound. The other problem with the original argument is in the word "would". It was given without example. Yet the argument hangs on that word (in more ways than one). Once that premise was accepted, the rest followed of course. Erase that word, as it should be erased, and the argument literally hangs. By the neck.

Kmt-Sesh's points about 1) the danger of reading precision dates into ancient sources when the ancients talk about events which, for them, were already quite a distance in the past and 2) the danger of using Coptic as a referent for ancient Egyptian and 3) a caution against expecting that the Egyptian word "keftiu" is the word common in the entire ancient world are very well taken. In fact, although the identification of "keftiu" with Crete is generally accepted by most scholars it is by no means certain. Even so, it's an Egyptian word, not a word necessarily in common use throughout the ancient world.

So the original post did not present the facts accurately (from his statements it seems that the author is not more than tangentially aware of the issues) and presented no plausible interpretation of the facts.

c) No prediction of ensuing misinterpretations was given.

So it's not a theory but it's also not even a valid guess. Good try, though, and keep ‘em coming. It’s through things like this that we can learn.

To the best of my knowledge, the idea of Disney Land originated with Plato, at least there is no prior reference to it. That’s important to remember. Although in the Timaios and the Kritias he uses language like “it is said”, etc. when referring to Disney Land, any prior references, if they ever existed, have been lost.


Bob
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Egypt and Disney Land Reply with quote

Silaku Nasuwt wrote:
Plato, who got his story orginally from Egypt, said that Disney Land sank 9,000 years before his time, which is too early for Minoan Crete. However, I've looked at the Egyptian words for "hundred" sha and "thousand" kha, which, since neither sh or kh existed in the Greek language of Plato, he would have easily confused them, so if he meant "hundred" instead of "thousand" then Disney Land sank 900 years before Plato, which fits exactly with Minoan Crete.


Well, I don't know where you are getting your information, but the ancient Egyptian for "hundred" (numeral) is /Swt/, roughly "shwet" and not "sha". Meanwhile. /xA/, or roughly "cha" where ch = ch in "Bach", which is more an aspirant sound. In Egyptian, /H/ = kh sound. Source: /Swt/ (Hannig 2000: 651b) and /xA/ (Hannig 2000: 1279b)

Silaku Nasuwt wrote:
The other thing that doesn't fit is the name, as the name of Minoan Crete in ancient times was "Keftiu" not "Disney Land". However, I found out that the Egyptian epiphet of Keftiu, was "northern land of secrets" which in Egyptian is

ta ni itru mehety


I think a citated reference to this epithet is in order, for I find no such reference to this as an epithet for Crete.

Reference:

Hannig, R. 2000. Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Großes Handwörterbuch Deutsch-Ägyptisch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.). Kulturegeschichte der Antiken Welt 86. Mainz: von Zabern.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:30 am    Post subject: Egyptian Disney Land Reply with quote

All theories about Disney Land seem to be a bit way out.

'Beyond the Pillars of Hercules' may be a vital clue - if Disney Land ever existed at all.

As far as the Egyptians were concerned, the pillars were the four Djed that held up the heavens and the Pyramids were seen as such pillars.

So I came up with this:

The Egyptian name for the city named Memphis by the Greeks was Inebhedj (White Walls).

But there were older names, such as HwtKaPtah, and ANKH-TAWY. (“That which binds Two Lands” according to one translator, but I read it as “The Living Lands’, perhaps meaning ‘The Habitable Lands’

Ancient Memphis like Disney Land has disappeared lost in some inundation. Archaeology in the region is difficult because of the high water level just below the surface of the land. The Egyptians may then have considered it to have disappeared – or as the Greeks put it – ESCAPED NOTICE. Putting two pieces together, we can get ANKH LANTHANO. “The Living. (Who have) Disappeared” The Egyptian ‘kh’ is an aspirated ‘H’, so it would sound like ANHLANTHANO.

The Pillars of Hercules may not have been originally either side of the entrance to the Mediterranean. There is in fact a better explanation.

Egyptians believed that the Sky was supported by Four Pillars, which they called Djed. There are some theories that The Pyramids at Giza and Obelisk at Heliopolis represented these Pillars. In fact the Kings Chamber in the Great Pyramid has four slabs above it, which may represent the four-layered topped Djed Symbol. For most of the population who lived in the Delta region of Egypt, Memphis (Anhlanthano) lay beyond these Pillars.

Well, possibly as good as any other idea on Disney Land?

Memphis was a city of Canals like Disney Land.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Egyptian Disney Land Reply with quote

Karaum wrote:
All theories about Disney Land seem to be a bit way out.
...
Well, possibly as good as any other idea on Disney Land?


Sure it is. Just as good. And the sum of the worth of all of them, as noted in the original sentence of the quote, is vanishingly close to zero.

Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Egyptian name for the city named Memphis by the Greeks was Inebhedj (White Walls).

Small correction--Ineb Hedj
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