Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Jesus and Egyptian Mythology
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
eklypised
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 4
Location: S.Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:58 pm    Post subject: Jesus and Egyptian Mythology Reply with quote

Are thier any similarites between Jesus and Egyptian Gods. I've seen skeptics say Horus had 12 disciples, born of a virgin, etc...I think Gearld Massey was the one who wrote books about this alo. My questions are

Is their any ideas stole from Egyption Gods for the story of Jesus?

Is Gearld Massey a credibul Egyptologist?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the myth of Osiris, along with other myths from other parts of the middle east, may have influenced the story of Jesus. I've not heard of Horus having 12 disciples but it seems to be well accepted by scholars that the images of Isis and Horus influenced later depictions of the Madonna and child.

I do think that Egyptian religion influenced the Christian faith (and the earlier Jewish faith) to some degree.
_________________
High-Priestess of Isis, Hereditary Princess, Lady of Philae, Favourite of Osiris, the Lord of Abydos, Daughter of Horus, Chantress of Bastet, Superior of the Kitty Litter Wink
<---Check out my av-I made it myself Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eklypised
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 4
Location: S.Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply

What about Gearld Massey?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eklypised
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 4
Location: S.Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres his article on Jesus and Egypt

http://www.gerald-massey.org.uk/massey/dpr_01_historical_jesus.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daughter_Of_SETI
Divine Adoratrice


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 2563
Location: Hull, UK

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that Christianity, like all religions or mythologies, will have been influenced to some degree by their neighbouring cultures (and that may very well include the Egyptians); nothing really comes from nothing. However, many similarities will just be coincidental. I really don't know enough about the origins of Christianity or the Bible to guess which parts are coincidences and which parts were taken from the ancient Egyptians or other cultures, but I would definitely say that it will be a healthy mixture of the two. Wink
_________________


In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this - Terry Pratchett.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 19th century, when Massey writes, the excavation and study of Egypt was reaching it's peak, and people, particularly the English, where reading all sorts of "hidden" connections between Egyptian religious history and Christianity.
Now, this such evidence is being re-examined, and with the latest discoveries has not proven so true.
I thing, as others have said, Christian belief was influenced by Egyptian thought, but not to the extent that Massey proposed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, eklypised. Massey wrote such a long time ago and I'd suggest reading more current works of literature by respected and vetted scholars. Massey was not an Egyptologist as we would know the term, but then again in his day there were relatively few trained and schooled Egyptologists. Nothing compared to today, at least. Massey was more of a spiritualist than a real scholar or historian. Still, I feel applying "Egyptologist" to him is a bit of a stretch.

We can look at a modern scholar such as Bob Brier, whose doctorate is in philosophy and not Egyptology, and yet he's recognized as an Egyptologist by many of the leading minds in the field. But Brier bases his studies on hard-core evidence and careful, professional analysis of the extant archaeological and textual record. You can't really say the same thing about Massey.

Osiris II hit on an important point. There were many folks like Massey in the nineteenth century, and people of his type were scurrying about in the Near East in the hopes of finding definitive, archaeological, and textual proof to back up the scriptures of the Bible. Never mind that they found very little--many of the earliest Near Eastern scholars were classically trained historians with a strong background in Christian education.

There is no doubt that ancient Egypt strongly influenced certain aspects of Judaism, and through Judaism early Christianity was likewise influenced. But it would be a severe oversimplification to say Judaism or Christianity came from ancient Egypt. Judaism is probably much more a product of the cultural history of the Levant and other religions (like Persia's Zaroastrianism) with which the Hebrews came into prolongued and steady contact.

That being said, Jesus seems to have very little to do with ancient Egypt. Think about it. When Jesus was born Egypt was already far past its prime and was nothing more than a vassal to Rome; much of what we would identify as "ancient Egyptian" was already long gone, and Egypt had become heavily Hellenized. In fact, Egyptologists I've met consider that period of Egypt's history not ancient but Classical--that period which is distinctly Greco-Roman.

Rather, Jesus was very much a product of the Jewish culture and the Roman occupation of the first century. He was part of the long tradition of the Jewish messianic prophecy; in fact, he was only one of numerous messiah-figures in first-century Palestine (the development of Christianity merely assured that he would become the best known to us). In his teachings Jesus is far different from most of the basic precepts of the ancient Egyptian religion. The most obvious connection is resurrection, but that was a common theme among divine figures in certain religions of the ancient Near East.

I would put aside Massey and turn to modern scholars, as I said earlier. There are far more reliable works for understanding Jesus and his time, such as Crossan and Reed's Excavating Jesus.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sekhmet225
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 5
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing in the doctrines of Jesus to suggest he "borrowed" from Egyptian beliefs. However the depictation of the Horus and Isis is almost identical to the "Madonna and Child". It shouldn't be considered as otherwise Mere coincidence.. .The concept of child nursing from mother is universal. Doctrine happen to supercede idea and of course people have been known to blow things completely out of proportion. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yhvh
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:38 pm    Post subject: Evidence of Christian Similarity to Ancient Egyptian Reply with quote

Yes, actually there is quite a bit of evidence that Jesus was drawn directly from Egyptian sources. You don't have to look at Gerald Massey's writings for the evidence either.


This is from the Encyclopedia Britannica under Egyptian Relgion
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/180764/Egyptian-religion -

The chief periods of Egyptian influence were, however, the 1st millennium BC and the Roman period. Egypt was an important centre of the Jewish diaspora starting in the 6th century BC, and Egyptian literature influenced the Hebrew Bible. With Greek rule there was significant cultural interchange between Egyptians and Greeks. Notable among Egyptian cults that spread abroad were those of Isis, which reached much of the Roman world as a mystery religion, and of Sarapis, a god whose name probably derives from Osiris-Apis, who was worshiped widely in a non-Egyptian iconography and cultural milieu. With Isis went Osiris and Horus the child, but Isis was the dominant figure. Many Egyptian monuments were imported to Rome to provide a setting for the principal Isis temple in the 1st century AD.

The cult of Isis was probably influential on another level. The myth of Osiris shows some analogies with the Gospel story and, in the figure of Isis, with the role of the Virgin Mary. The iconography of the Virgin and Child has evident affinities with that of Isis and the infant Horus. Thus, one aspect of Egyptian religion may have contributed to the background of early Christianity, probably through the cultural centre of Alexandria.
Egypt also was an influential setting for other religious and philosophical developments of late antiquity such as Gnosticism, Manicheism, Hermetism, and Neoplatonism, some of which show traces of traditional Egyptian beliefs. Some of these religions became important in the intellectual culture of the Renaissance. Finally, Christian monasticism seems to have originated in Egypt and could look back to a range of native practices, among which were seclusion in temple precincts and the celibacy of certain priestesses. Within Egypt, there are many survivals from earlier times in popular Christianity and Islām.


From Monotheism in the Encyclopedia Britannica
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/390101/monotheism -

Christianity
Among the three great monotheistic religions, Christianity has a place apart, because of the trinitarian creed of this religion in its classic forms, in contradistinction to the unitarian creed of Judaism and Islām. The Christian Bible, including the New Testament, has no trinitarian statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity, only triadic liturgical formulas invoking God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is true that Christianity also has had its Unitarians, such as the 16th-century Italian theologian Faustus Socinus, but this religion in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. According to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one, or as the dogmatic formulation, coined by the early Church Father Tertullian (c. 160–after 220), has it: three Persons and one substance. This conception was not accepted without contradiction as is proved by theological disputes of the 3rd and 4th century. It is evident that trinitarian speculation greatly resembles the way of thinking of pluriform monotheism.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yhvh
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject: 2nd part Reply with quote

This is the second part of my last post. For some reason the server couldn't handle the length of the post. lol Very Happy



Monotheistic elements in ancient Middle Eastern and Mediterranean religions

Egyptian religion is of special interest with regard to the various topics treated in this article, for in it are found polytheism, henotheism, pluriform monotheism, trinitary speculations, and even a kind of monotheism. Especially in the time of the New Kingdom (16th–11th century BC) and later, there arose theological speculations about many gods and the one god, involving concepts that belong to the realm of pluriform monotheism. These ideas are especially interesting when related to trinitarian conceptions, as they sometimes are. In a New Kingdom hymn to Amon are the words: “Three are all gods: Amon, Re and Ptah . . . he who hides himself for them [mankind] as Amon, he is Re to be seen, his body is Ptah.” As Amon he is the “hidden god” (deus absconditus); in Re, the god of the sun, he becomes visible; as Ptah (see photograph), one of the gods of the earth, he is immanent in this world.

Much attention has been given to the reform of Egyptian religion as effected by the pharaoh Akhenaton (Amenophis IV) in the 14th century BC. This reform has been judged in many ways, favourably and unfavourably; it is, however, clear that Akhenaton's theology, if not fully monotheistic, in any case strongly tends toward monotheism. It is even possible to follow the gradual development of his ideas in this direction. At first he only singled out Aton, one of the forms of the sun god, for particular worship, but gradually this kind of henotheism developed in the direction of exclusive monotheism and even took on the intolerance peculiar to this religious concept. The names of the other gods were to be deleted. This un-Egyptian intolerance was probably the main reason for the speedy decline of this creed.


It is no wonder why the Christian bible uses the word Amen. It does not mean "so be it" as they suggest. You have to look no further than Amen of Egypt who was one of the gods there for thousands of years before the "Jews" left Egypt.

Make not of the bible verses where Jesus is identified as being the Amen.

Revelation 3:14 -
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

Jeremiah 11:5

5 Then I will keep the promise I made to your ancestors to give them a fertile land.' And you are living in that country today."

I answered, "Amen, Lord."


The "Lord" is YHVH which is Amen. This is the same thing as the golden calf that the jews were worshiping. The trinity is an Egyptian idea directly borrowed from the Egyptians.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but by no stretch of the imagination is Amen--"So Be It" in any way related to Amun, one of the Egyptian gods.
That you posted in no way referred to any connection between Egyptian religion and Christianity.
Any connection made between the two is mere wishful thinking, and nothing more.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1031
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sekhmet225 wrote:
... However the depictation of the Horus and Isis is almost identical to the "Madonna and Child". It shouldn't be considered as otherwise Mere coincidence.. .The concept of child nursing from mother is universal. Doctrine happen to supercede idea and of course people have been known to blow things completely out of proportion. Laughing


However, in some cases, the concept of the Madonna and Child = Isis and Horus the Child is not "mere coincidence." There are ample examples in Africa, the Mediterranean, and East European areas (where the fast-moving Isis cult set up during the late Ptolemaic --> early Christian periods) where, when Christianity later predominated those areas, the former cult image of Isis with the Horus child were directly moved from older cult centres into newly created churches to serve as images of the Christian Madonna with her child, Jesus.

This issue is covered in such works as:

Bresciani, E. 1981. Dall'Egitto ellenistico all'Egitto cristiano: l'eredità faraonica. In XXVIII Corso di Culture sull'arte Ravennate a Bizantina. Ravenna, 26 aprile / 8 maggio 1981: 21-30. Università degli Studi di Bologna. Istituto di Antichità Ravennati a Bizantine. Ravenna: Edizioni del Girasole.

Lanczkowski, G. 1955. Zur äthiopischen Madonnenverehrung. Zeitschrift für Kirchengeschichte, (Stuttgart) Vierte Folge IV. LXVI. Band (1954/55): 25-38.

Zuntz, D. 1929. Eine Vorstufe der "Madonna lactans". Berliner Museen 50: 32-35.

HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's been awhile since the "Amen" argument has popped up. Yes, yhvh, to be blunt the word "Amen" in the Judeo-Christian sense comes from the Hebraic declaration "So be it." The Greeks brought this word from the synagogue to the Western world, in the early stages of Christianity.

I've said it before and I'll say it again because it bears repeating, the Western spelling of the name of this Egyptian god is in partly artificial. Neseret can perhaps explain it better than I, but at best we have only a vague idea of how this god's name was pronounced by the ancient people who worshiped him.

Transliterated from the ancient Egyptian language it is 'Imn. The written script of ancient Egypt did not employ vowels, and the closest we get are what linguists call "weak consonants." That being said, and considering this has been a dead language for some 1,600 years, we cannot possibly be sure how many words in their vocabulary were exactly pronounced.

"Amen" is just one way the name has been rendered in modern times. I personally prefer "Amun." In other places the convention is "Amon," although that's probably the least common.

Also important is the fact that Hebrew and ancient Egyptian are different languages. From the same overall family of languages, yes, but not mutually intelligible. It would be like saying English and German are mutually intelligible, because they are from the same language family.

Bottom line is, the Hebraic "Amen" and the ancient Egyptian 'Imn have nothing in common. Can we find traces of ancient Egypt in the Bible? Absolutely. No one can deny that, but "Amen" and 'Imn are not an example.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt sesh--

Amen (pun intended...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha ha! I get it! Laughing
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group