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Sit-Kamose
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 4:58 pm    Post subject: Sit-Kamose Reply with quote

The early 18th dynasty princess Ahmes Sit-Kamose is described on her mummy wrappings as a king's daughter, king's sister and great royal wife. She is elsewhere known as a god's wife and associated with king Ahmose. It seems to be the consensus that her name indicates that she was a daughter of Kamose and that she was the second wife of this Ahmose, the first 18th dynasty ruler.

But what about the title of "king's sister"? It is generally agreed, I think, that Ahmose was a son of Seqenenre Tao (II) and it is certain that Ahmose was the father of Amenhotep I. I know no reasons to doubt the succession between Tao, Kamose and Ahmose.

Would Kamose have been father to a king that ruled between himself and Kamose? I doubt it, but why is his daughter than referred to as the sister of a king? I have two thoughts on a solution, but they are not that strong, I'm aware of it Smile Feel free to comment as ever.


1. The title of "king's sister" is purely ritual, like in the way pharaohs used to adress the great rulers of the east as their 'brother', a form of equals so to say. This would mean though that Sit-Kamose had a very influential position, which is hard to make sense to when Ahmose-Nefertari, Ahmose's principal wife, already had such influence.

2. Sit-Kamose was Ahmose's half-sister as well? Making her mother the same as Ahmose's, while they had different fathers, would result in quite an incestuous relationship. Kamose would've married the widow of his father, his (step)mother, who was already mother to Ahmose, to 'make' Sit-Kamose with her (sorry, my polite English is pretty modest on this front). This would make Seqenenre's wife mother to both Ahmose and Sit-Kamose, maybe even Kamose, resulting in something like this:

Seqenenre Tao II X Ahhotep
- sons: Ahmose (and Kamose if not from another mother)

Kamose X Ahhotep (mother or stepmother)
- daughter: Sit-Kamose


Too far-fetched? I think so too Confused
There are no precedents or antecedents I know of for the second thesis and I doubt there would be. But for the first thought, that one sounds not so far-fetched to me. Help me out. Smile
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Sit-Kamose Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Would Kamose have been father to a king that ruled between himself and Kamose? I doubt it, but why is his daughter than referred to as the sister of a king? I have two thoughts on a solution, but they are not that strong, I'm aware of it Smile Feel free to comment as ever.


*father to a king that ruled between himself and Ahmose?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great minds think alike??? I was just about to start this thread Very Happy

It is not clear if Ahmose and Kamose are brothers or father and son.

The titles of Sit-Kamose would give some circumstantial evidence that they were actually father and son.

That time period is rather complicated. Ahmose-Nefertari was married to Pharaoh Ahmose. They are often thought to have been brother and sister. I'm not sure if DNA tests have confirmed this or not.

I did read that Ahmose married a full sister called Seket-Re.

Another possibility is that in large families generations overlap.

I think Queen Ahhotep I is usually thoought to be Kamose's mother.

I'm a bit doubtful about an unknown King having to be inserted in the lineage.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Her mummy is described here:
http://members.tripod.com/anubis4_2000/17A.htm#Ahmose-Sitkamose

Her name is given as Ahmose-Sit-Kamose.
She was apparently about 30 years old when she died.

Quote:
Her teeth are only moderately worn, and her hair had not yet turned gray at the time of her death. Sitkamose's arms had been positioned so that her hands could rest over the pubic region, and Smith comments that this is very unusual for mummies of this period.


I wonder if there's any sign that she had children?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahmose-Nefertari is always said to be the daughter of Sekenenre-Tao and Queen Ahhotep I.

If Ahmose is really the son of Kamose. Does this mean Ahmose married his aunt? Or is it possible that Kamose was a younger brother of Sekenenre-Tao?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that the coffin of Kamose was found in 1910, but his mummy crumbled into pieces when the coffin was opened.
I have no idea if enough remains to do DNA tests though.

I should mention that under the thread "DNA tests" there's a bit of info about some of the family relations of this family. Nothing that sheds any light on Ahmose-Sitkamose though.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Great minds think alike??? I was just about to start this thread Very Happy

It is not clear if Ahmose and Kamose are brothers or father and son.
The titles of Sit-Kamose would give some circumstantial evidence that they were actually father and son.
That time period is rather complicated. Ahmose-Nefertari was married to Pharaoh Ahmose. They are often thought to have been brother and sister. I'm not sure if DNA tests have confirmed this or not.
I did read that Ahmose married a full sister called Seket-Re.
Another possibility is that in large families generations overlap.
I think Queen Ahhotep I is usually thoought to be Kamose's mother.
I'm a bit doubtful about an unknown King having to be inserted in the lineage.


Seriously? I thought there never was any mentioning of Kamose and Ahmose not being brothers, gonna have to look that one up. If they were, it would make the titles make sense though. The genealogy wouldn't get any easier though Smile

Ahhotep I X Sekenenre Tao
- offspring: Ahmose-Nefertari X Ahmose X Seket-Re + Kamose


is what I read everywhere (untill now that is). If we go further on this one, it all gets down to whether Kamose and Ahmose really are brothers. Ahmose being Kamose's son would solve this, but wouldn't fit with him marrying his two other sisters who came from the same mother Kamose had - Ahmose-Nefertari and Seket-Re are attested to be Ahhotep's daughters. Kamose would have had to marry his own mother to make Ahmose marry his sisters in that case. Right?

Confusing Confused


No question about us, being great minds.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding to Ahmose's immediate family and predecessors I found these few comments, none referring to a possible father-son relation between Kamose and Ahmose though.

Quote:
Son of queen Ahhotep and Seqenenre Tao, brother of Kamose - the last rulers of dynasty XVII. Manetho assigned to him 25 years and 4 months of rule. Analysis of his mummy revealed that at the moment of death he was aged 35 so that Ahmose must have become a pharaoh at a very young age. This might be possible considering the early death of his father Seqenenre, and brother Kamose. In 18/19 year of rule (year 11 of Khamudi's rule) he captured Awaris and the fortress Scharuhen in southern Palestine after 3 years-siege and thus completed act of restoration of Egyptian independence definitely expulsing Hyksos. He broadened vastly Egyptian borders making three successful campaigns in Nubia (after revolt of certain Aata) and one in Asia. Ahmose restored an office of viceroy of Kush and thus spread his own influence far to the south. He was brother and husband of queen Ahmose-Nefertari, the mother of Amenhotep I.


See: http://www.narmer.pl/indexen.htm

Quote:
Ahmose war verheiratet mit Ahmes-Nefertari, sie waren die Eltern von Ahmose-Sipair und Amenhotep I. Was Vater Se-kenen-Rê und Bruder Kamose angefangen hatten, vollendete Ahmose: er eroberte nach 3-jähriger Belagerung die Hyksos-Hauptstadt Avaris im Nildelta (18./19. Jahr) und vertrieb die Fremdherrscher. Hierbei drang er bis Palästina vor (Eroberung von Scharuhen). Die Grenze zu Libyen wurde gefestigt, auch Nubien wieder erobert (Aufstand eines Aata) und die Südgrenze hinter den 2. Katarakt verlegt (Buhen, Insel Sai). Er erschuf das Amt des "Vizekönigs von Kusch", das er einem Ahmose-Satait übertrug. Die treibende Kraft der Reichseinigung war wohl zuerst die Großmutter des Ahmose, Königin Tetischeri, und nach deren Tod Ahmoses Mutter, die Königin Aahotep. Seiner Großmutter Tetischeri hat Ahmose in Abydos ein Kenotaph (Scheingrab) mit Kapelle errichten lassen. Die dort aufgefundene Verehrungsstele befindet sich heute in Kairo.

Nach Ahmoses Tod lebte Ahmose-Nefertari noch mindestens 10 Jahre, und der Einfluss auf ihren Sohn war so stark wie der ihrer Mutter und Großmutter auf deren Männer und Kinder. Sie errichtete zusammen mit ihrem Sohn Amenhotep I bei Korna einen Totentempel und wurde wie schon Ahmose auf dem Gräberberg von Dra Abu el-Naga bestattet (neuerdings ordnet A. Dodson KV 32 im Tal der Könige dem Ahmose zu).


See: http://www.semataui.de/NR/18-01.htm

Quote:
Pourtant, le pharaon Ahmosis, premier souverain de la XVIIIe dynastie, fils du roi Séqénenrê Tâa, semble n'avoir chassé les Hyksôs qu'assez tard, peut-être vers l'an 18. (...)
Ahmosis est vraisemblablement monté sur le trône très jeune. Sa grand-mère et sa mère, les reines Téti-Shéri et Ahhotep I, semblent avoir exercé la régence. Sur sa grande stèle de Karnak à la gloire d'Amon (Urk. IV, 14-24), Ahmosis accomplit l'éloge de sa mère (Urk. IV, 21). Une autre stèle érigée à Abydos honore sa grand-mère. Son épouse, la reine et divine adoratrice Ahmès-Néfertary, fait quant à elle l'objet des attentions de la Stèle de la donation, qui détaille ses grandes prérogatives politiques et religieuses. (...)
On lui connaît deux fils : un certain Ahmosis, présenté comme l'aîné sur la Stèle de la donation, vraisemblablement mort avant son père, et Amenhotep I qui lui succède. Il aurait eu également comme fille une Mérytamon, qui devient l'épouse d'Amenhotep I.


See: http://www.thotweb.com/encyclopedie/ahmosis.htm
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The french quote mentions "the other stele from Abydos" honoring the grandmother of Ahmose.

Breasted mentions the same stela and he conjectures that father of Ahmose is Kamose.

It is clear from that stela that Ahhotep is Ahmose's mother and Tetisheri is his grand-mother. It is not unambiguously clear who these ladies were married to.
Breasted thought Ahhotep was married to Kamose and Tetisheri to Seqenenre-Tao.

I have seen reference made also to TWO different Ahhoteps. This may explain some of the confusion.

Another question is: Didn't Ahmose come to the throne very young? I thought Ahhotep was the regent for him. And somehow Tetisheri also played an important role.
I thought that Kamose came to the throne without needing a regent, but may have died relatively young. This would make Ahmose as the son of a young king more likely.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be that after the Amarna tar-pits, we just located some Theban tarpits? Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad u don't get rich by discovering tar pits. Cool
I'll have to look up that point of view again, I didn't know it ever got disputed actually. I'll look for something Breasted.
...
Nevermind, weak joke. Rolling Eyes
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's in electronic form at:

http://www.cwru.edu/UL/preserve/Etana/Etana.html

Too bad it's James Henry Breasted....
(Making a bad joke worse?)

But all kidding aside: The books by JHB are a nice resource to have.
I looked at them on the web, but ended up buying one on the 18th dynasty.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don`t know if it is a bitt late to respons on your earlier posts, but I have seen a scarab of ahmose and kamose. With this link you can see it. (number 52)

http://www.cwru.edu/univlib/preserve/Etana/scarabs_cylinders/plates4.pdf

This is the description:
52 . . . . . KAMES ; rev. RA*NEB-PEHTI. King seated. Prince Kames and Aahmes I Pottery. Green-blue Flat

Your theorie can be right if you take Kamose as a younger brother of Seqenenre and Ahhotep. Than can it be that Ahhotep first married her elder brother and when he died, she married her younger brother Kamose. And with him she had sitkamose and ahmose nefertari. I even think kamose was her half brother, I dont think he was the son of Tetisheri.

There is another princess with this problem: princess Ahmose, daughter of Seqenenre & Sitdhout/ Sitdjehuti QV 47. She is also mentioned as a kings sister, but was in fact a half sister of Ahmose.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got to love the Etana site. Smile

Anika wrote:
Your theorie can be right if you take Kamose as a younger brother of Seqenenre and Ahhotep. Than can it be that Ahhotep first married her elder brother and when he died, she married her younger brother Kamose. And with him she had sitkamose and ahmose nefertari. I even think kamose was her half brother, I dont think he was the son of Tetisheri.


What do you make of Ahmose then? A younger brother to both Seqenenre, Ahhotep and Kamose? Or was Ahmose then Kamose's son, marrying his sister Sit-Kamose?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From his mummy, Seqenenre-Tao II was between 30 and 40 when he died. Kamose ruledonly for some 5 years.

They found a cache of mummies in Deir el Bahari (DB 320) which has quite a few of the royal mummies from this period.

1. Seqnenre Tao II - died between 30-40 yrs of age died ca 1555 BC
2. Ahmose-Inhapi - sister/wife of Tao II
3. Ahmose Hentempet - dau of Tao II and sister/wife Aahotep
4. Ahmose Hettimehu - dau of Tao II and Ahmose Inhapi
5. Sit-Kamose - labelled as King's Daughter, King's Sister, King's Wife
6. Ahmose - Ruled 1550 - 1525 BC Forbes mentions that Ahmose had two principal sister/wives: Ahmose Inhapi and Ahmose Nefertari
7. Ahmose Nefertari - dau of Tao II and Aahotep, wife of Ahmose
8. Amenhotep I - son of Ahmose Nefertari and Ahmose

(Some unidentified mummies were also found, as well as Thutmosis I-III and some of the early Ramesside Kings.)

The mention of Ahmose Inhapi is strange too. A woman by this name is sister/wife to Tao II and a woman by this name is sister/wife to Ahmose.

This would indicate (if there's one woman by that name) that
Tao II, Kamose and Ahmose were all brothers.
Their sisters/wives include: Ahmose Inhapi, Aahotep, Ahmose Nefertari.

Sit-Kamose could be the daughter of Kamose. Using the egyptian "extended meaning" of sister she was the "sister" of Amenhotep I.
Some think that Ahmose Nefertari was first married to Kamose. If Sit-Kamose was her daughter, then she really was the half-sister of Amenhotep I. He would then be the King she was King's Wife to.

The theory seems to fit with the structure of the royal family and the time frame allows Tao II, Kamose, and Ahmose to be brothers.

At a time of war you might expect that a King was followed on the throne by his brother.
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