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Ankh(et)kheperure Neferneferuaten & Smenkhkhare

 
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burlgirl
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Ankh(et)kheperure Neferneferuaten & Smenkhkhare Reply with quote

I just read the article by Marc Gabolde on the bbc web page where he says "Ankh(et)kheperure Neferneferuaten who was, it is highly likely, Merytaten herself" and that "The absence of a birth name, the lack of an Egyptian of appropriate rank and the clues in the Hittite archives allow us to conjecture that Smenkhkhare might in fact be the Hittite prince Zannanza".

This just doesn't make sense to me. Earlier in the article he also supposes that Nefertiti is the mother of Tut. So, wouldn't Tut have become pharoah, no matter how young, on the death of Akhenaten, because he would be the only male child? Why would a female become pharoah over a male?

As attractive as his theory is, it seems to me that Tut's the fly in the ointment.

Or am I missing something?

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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferneferuaten = Merytaten is today a general opinion. I used to have his book where the two others theories are explained : No comments.
[When M.Gabolde made his research for his book, he had a grant from LVMH (a luxuries, champagne company), therefore he had to come with something. The most interresting parts in his book are the bibliography and the footnotes which take half a page most of the time].
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of the thinking may be that due to his young age Tutankhaten needed a regent at the beginning of his reign.
Maybe Merytaten became regent and a la Hatshepsut overstepped her role a tad?

From what I have read Smenkhare and Neferneferuaten are thought by many to be 2 different people. Neferneferuaten is thought to be a female.
It is not a 100% clear is she was a co-regent of Akhenaten, regent for Tutankhaten or even a female who grabbed the throne when Tut vas very small.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monika SADOWSKA in Semenkhkare and Zannanza, GM 175 (2000), 73-77 disagrees with M.Gabolde. Well, I did not need this article to have my own opinion. Here is M.Gabolde answer to this article.
"J'ajoute enfin que l'article de Monica Sadowska que vous citez et qui réfute ma proposition est plein de contresens. On me fait dire des choses que je n'ai jamais écrites. En outre, cet auteur passe complétement sous silence l'argumentation fondée sur la comparaison des lettres d'Amarna et des archives de Boghaz Koï. Elle conclut par un retour à l'hypothèse traditionnelle, avec les mêmes arguments que ses préfécesseurs, qui sont faciles à contrecarer, sans apporter un seul argument nouveau. Il est irritant de constater que cet article (le seul à ma connaissance de cet auteur) est mis sur le même plan que la démonstration scientifique que je me suis donné la peine de faire. Il est facile de dire qu'une hypothèse est contestable du simple fait qu'elle est contestée. Il est beacoup plus difficile de se donner la peine de vérifier la pertinence des arguments (17 nov 2004) "

Marc Gabolde unpublished PhD Thesis was on king Ay. Regarding the Amarna period, he made very contributions and very poor one. On a forum when he has no serious arguments, he gets mad and his final answer is "what have you published so far ?".
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was is sure regarding the position of Merytaten, is that she was Smenkhkare's Great wife at some point in time : http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03060990.jpg
IMO this was before becoming Neferneferuaten. I do not imagine Meritaten becoming a "son of Re" as Neferneferuaten and then stepping down when finding a husband.
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burlgirl
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard,
Unfortunately, I don't read French. What is the jist of the quote that you posted in French?

Also, the picture link you posted: isn't that Nefertiti, Akhenaten and the princesses? How does that show that she is Smenkhkare's Great Wife? I'm not getting it...

I hadn't heard that general opionion that Neferneferuaten= Merytaten. From all that I've read it's still up for grabs just who Neferneferuaten was - Nefertiti, Merytaten, Smenkhare or just who?

The thought that Merytaten was co-regent for Tut occured to me. Not sure what I think of that, but I do find it intriguing.

I have spent time looking at objects that were made for Ankh(et)eperure Neferneferuaten or Smenkhkhare to try and find a recognizable face. I confess that Tut's 2nd coffin does not look female to me. I wonder if it was orginally made for Akhenaten. One of the gold covered statues from the tomb that is in the recent exhibit looks an awful lot like Nefertitit to me, but could just as easily be one of her daughters. It strikes me as funny, because when the objects were displayed in the 80s and I was still in high school, my adult brother-in-law saw that same statue and commented on how female it looks. I told him that it was an artistic convention (this was before the idea that Ankh(et)kheperure Neferneferuaten could be female was widely accepted, although Julia Samson had certainly suggested Nefertiti as a possible pharoah - I just hadn't read about it yet).

Lots to think about that will probably never be resolved satisfactorily. Coming up with theories is fun, but they are still theories until there is proof. At this point, I don't see a lot of conclusive proof to support a female pharoah at this time period, though I WANT there to be.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burlgirl wrote:
Gerard,
Unfortunately, I don't read French. What is the jist of the quote that you posted in French?

Google translation software renders the text as:
Quote:
I would add that the article by Monica Sadowska you cite, and which rejects my proposal is full of contradiction. It makes me say things that I have never written. Furthermore, the author is completely silent on the argument based on the comparison of the Amarna letters and archives of Boghaz Koï. It concludes with a return to the traditional assumption, the same arguments that its préfécesseurs, which are easy to contrecarer, without making a single argument again. It is irritating to see that this article (the only one to my knowledge of the author) was placed on the same plane as a scientific demonstration that I have taken the trouble to do so. It is easy to say that a hypothesis is questionable simply because she is challenged. It is a lot more difficult to bother to check the relevance of the arguments


burlgirl wrote:
Also, the picture link you posted: isn't that Nefertiti, Akhenaten and the princesses? How does that show that she is Smenkhkare's Great Wife? I'm not getting it...

I cannot find the appropriate link to the Lepsius site.

But from my own website:
"From a scene in the tomb of Merire we do know that Meritaten married the elusive successor of Akhenaten, named Smenkhare. In the tomb of Merire we see Smenkhare and his great royal wife Meritaten handing out rewards to Merire. The scene is raather non-standard in the fact that the royal couple is depicted standing before the window of appearance. They seem to be standing at the same level as the court official instead of the more traditional depiction where they appear in the window and are shown handing down gifts."

Meritaten is also associated with Smenkhare on other objects:
An Amarna Block reused in Hermopolis. No (surviving) image, but the names of Smenkhare and Meritaten appear together on this block.

burlgirl wrote:
From all that I've read it's still up for grabs just who Neferneferuaten was - Nefertiti, Merytaten, Smenkhare or just who?

I believe that many now think that Neferneferuaten was female based on some of the epithets used. I cannot remember the exact phrases off the top of my head though ...
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burlgirl wrote:
How does that show that she is Smenkhkare's Great Wife?
When the link works, you have to read the cartouches in the top right, everything else is not relevant.
burlgirl wrote:
I hadn't heard that general opinion that Neferneferuaten= Merytaten.
See http://history.memphis.edu/murnane/Allen%20-%20Amarna%20Succession.pdf page 14 where I pick up the sentence.
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I believe that many now think that Neferneferuaten was female based on some of the epithets used.
Neferneferuaten is a queen because some "Ankhkeperure" have the feminin form with (t). May be some epithets as well. In ancient books, the writer was transforming ankhkeperure in Smenkhkare, therefore one has to be carefull when reading these books.
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gabolde is still touring France with his baseless theories. I have no reason not to believe my informer, but Pierre Grandet in Les pharaons du Nouvel Empire (1550-1069 av. J.-C.) : Une pensée stratégique considers Gabolde's theory regarding Zannanza ==> Smenkhkare as something stupid. AFAIK Neferneferuaten = Merytaten was first proposed by R.Krauss in Das Ende des Amarzeit (Source : Allen in The Amarna Succession p.14 n.60). No idea about Grandet when it comes to strategy and the military, but Gabolde is nuts.
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