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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:39 pm    Post subject: About everything discussed from Achenaton to Aye Reply with quote

Don't ask me why, but I got a personal mail from the revered mr. Marc Gabolde with the short message:

Quote:
To avoid some misunderstandings, please have a look at :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/amarna_01.shtml

Marc
--



It's not my habit to publish my mails, luckily for you guys Cool , but seriously: take a look, it adresses most points made or mentioned here and frankly, it really underlines my own views on the amarna-days. Except for the Smenchkare-case perhaps, which I still need to study a little more on myself. Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting theory, but there are several questions that come to mind:

What is the evidence to Beketaten being the daughter of Kiya? And why is she so firmly associateed with Tiye in the Amarna tombs?

If Dahamunzu is Meritaten, then why is Aye the King following on the throne after the demise of the king?

I know Mr Gabolde has better credentials than I do, but I don't see his theories fitting with the facts as I know them.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Interesting theory, but there are several questions that come to mind:

What is the evidence to Beketaten being the daughter of Kiya? And why is she so firmly associateed with Tiye in the Amarna tombs?

If Dahamunzu is Meritaten, then why is Aye the King following on the throne after the demise of the king?

I know Mr Gabolde has better credentials than I do, but I don't see his theories fitting with the facts as I know them.


It surprised me too, hearing of Baketaton being Kiya's kid. The references to Tiye would make sense during the time when Kiya was already out of favor, associating her - having to be still in favor then - daughter to a queen who got the highest regards possible. I doubt her depictions and association to Tiye dated only from after the time Kiya was put aside though.

I have the same questions about Dahamunza, but there is a time gap between the correspondence on Zananza and the later letters of Aye. A better counter-argument would be why Meritaton would have a need for a royal husband, when Mr. Gabolde states the succesor to Smenchkare, Tutanchamon would definitely be of royal blood. No need for a foreign prince then, no?

I liked his view on Tut, being son to Achie and Nefer, makes sense like he puts that one.

Never be intimidated by credentials, my sweet Annie, I don't think any lower of your capacities and I doubt you do too. Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="The Lord of the Board, Segereh]I liked his view on Tut, being son to Achie and Nefer, makes sense like he puts that one.[/quote]

I agree. I like that theory as well. That does seem to it the data.
But isn't there some inscription where Tut names a woman called Meritre as his mother? Or has that been debunked as a fraud?
Calling Nefertiti "beloved of Re" may not be too far of a stretch, but Meritaten seems to fit that a bit better.

[quote="Segereh]Never be intimidated by credentials, my sweet Annie, I don't think any lower of your capacities and I doubt you do too.[/quote]
I'm not easily intimidated Laughing
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egyptiandreams Thread Mistress wrote:
I agree. I like that theory as well. That does seem to it the data. But isn't there some inscription where Tut names a woman called Meritre as his mother? Or has that been debunked as a fraud?
Calling Nefertiti "beloved of Re" may not be too far of a stretch, but Meritaten seems to fit that a bit better.


I have never seen that one seriously being debated or anything, wouldn't know the source of it actually. I would want to go further on it, since it would seem quite a heavy piece of 'evidence', but not knowing the source, u can't do much with it. Sad

Btw, it's [quote="Segereh"]. Don't leave out the last " Wink
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a discussion about it here:
http://www.egyptology.com/kmt/summer98/forum.html

It seems to be highly questionable that Tut's mom was Meritre now that I read it.

[quote="The Lord of the Board, Segereh"]Btw, it's
Segereh wrote:
. Don't leave out the last "

I know, lousy point to have a typo Confused
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't believe I screwed it up again.....

Een ezel stoot zich in 't gemeen niet twee maal aan dezelfde steen.
(This is Dutch for: A donkey usually doesn't hit his head on the same stone twice.
Implying I'm worse than an ass for making the same mistake twice Laughing Laughing )
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hèhèhè...
I'm still king at quoting, I guess... king
Gonna leave my laptop, gonna visit my bed.
Nighty-night!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Hèhèhè...
I'm still king at quoting, I guess... king


yes you are Cool Laughing
See you tomorrow Smile
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing You two are a pair of dags!
(Kiwi jargon: read goofballs, not golfballs Wink )

Quote:
It's not my habit to publish my mails, luckily for you guys

Shocked Thank god for that!

Very Happy Interesting article, will read it again when I'm not tired.
Never knew about the two coronation names of Smenkhare.

I was under the impression that Tushratta dies a couple of years later than Yr 17 Ak's rule - more 1360BC. Still, give or take a couple of years - probably hard to be certain.
Regarding Kiya as Tadukhipa. I read of a funny quirk of events: her brother Mattuaza (as Mittani king) married to a sister of Zannanza (daughter of Suppiluliuma).
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The treasure called Sesen wrote:
I was under the impression that Tushratta dies a couple of years later than Yr 17 Ak's rule - more 1360BC. Still, give or take a couple of years - probably hard to be certain. Regarding Kiya as Tadukhipa. I read of a funny quirk of events: her brother Mattuaza (as Mittani king) married to a sister of Zannanza (daughter of Suppiluliuma).


Here's an aproximate dating of the Mitanni-rulers:

Kirta 1500-1490 BC
Suttarna I 1490-1470 BC
Baratarna 1470-1450 BC
Parsatatar 1450-1440 BC
Saussatar 1440-1410 BC
Artatama 1410-1400 BC
Suttarna II 1400-1385 BC
Artashumara 1385-1380 BC
Tushratta 1380-1350 BC
Mattiwaza 1350-1320 BC
Sattuara I 1320-1300 BC
Vashasatta 1300-1280 BC
Sattuara II 1280-1270 BC

He sent the following message to Achenaton. (Napkhuria, referring to Nefer-Cheperoe-Re, Achie's nesoe-bity name.) I must say I've seen alternate versions where the part in bold is translated as 'children', one very significant 'detail'. We've mentioned the content somewhere else as a reasoning for Tut being Achie's son, but I happened to bump into it, so here goes:

EA 28 wrote:
To Napkhuria, king of Egypt, my brother, my son-in-law, who loves me and whom I love, thus speaks Tushratta, king of Mitanni, your father-in-law who loves you, your brother. I am well. May you be well too. Your houses, Tiye your mother, Lady of Egypt, Tadu-Heba, my daughter, your wife, your other wives, your sons, your noblemen, your chariots, your horses, your soldiers, your country and everything belonging to you, may they all enjoy excellent health.


Back to what I was saying (though I wonder why u mention Tush, since he doesn't really have anything to do with the article Smile )...
King Tushratta was the last really independent lord of Mitanni and was assassinated in a palace conspiracy by one of his sons, some time before 1350BC. After his death, Mitanni became only a name to a realm that was nothing more than a vassal-state to both Hatti and the rising kingdom of Assyria. Egypt had now lost its buffer to Hatti and Assyria, something the coming century would soon make clear to see. His name is 'vedically translated' as "Tvish-ratha" ("possessing the chariot of splendor"), but also 'semitically translated' as "Ab-du-Ashratta" ("slave of (the goddess) Asherath"). Where Mitanni kings maybe wore Indo-Aryan names like Tushratta, it appears their daughters had Hurrian, native names. Most known examples are our own little Tadu-Heba(t) and Gilu-Heba(t). Too bad I haven't yet found a translation of those. Crying or Very sad

So it appears he actually even lived a little longer than u imagined. Smile
Where did u read he died about Achie's year 17?

About his son Mattiwaza: he is currently more accepted to be called 'Shattiwaza', because of translation-diffs I won't even start to mention. He made a pact with king Suppiluliuma of Hatti u can read up on at www.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/rida98/CORNIL.pdf. It's in French, I warn u. There Supp mentions making Shattiwaza king of Mitanni after the bloody turmoil following Tushratta's murdering and giving the prince his own daughter to be queen of Mitanni. Supp kinda stresses the role of his daughter in the text. I wonder why. Smile By this time the ruler of Mitanni was clearly nothing more than the Hattian king's own little toyboy.

Supp's daughter was indeed sister to Zananza. Since it still is too controversial, I won't glue ages to the realms of Hattian rulers (Bryce and McMahan are my two main sources here: where McMahan makes Supp die around 1340BC, Bryce uses the same date as Supp's ascension to the throne). What's for sure is that Suppiluliuma I was either the son of Tudhaliya III or of Hattusili II while he was succesively followed up by two of his own sons, Arnuwanda II and Mursili II. Next to these two sons, he had three other ones, Telipinu (viceroy of Aleppo), Sharri-Kushuh (viceroy of Carchemish) and the famous but ironically title-less prince Zananza. We know little to nothing about his daughters though. How important the (symbolic) rule of a Hattian prince as queen of Mitanni may have been, we don't even know her name...


Sessie wrote:
Quote:
It's not my habit to publish my mails, luckily for you guys.

Shocked Thank god for that!


Never fear, my luscious princess, people already know u're kinky. No need to publish my mails to make them do. Cool
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Precious Prince wrote:
Quote:

Back to what I was saying (though I wonder why u mention Tush, since he doesn't really have anything to do with the article


This is what I was referring too - Dr Marc Gabolde states:
Quote:
Around Year XVI another important figure disappeared from the scene, Akhenaten's second wife, Kiya.

Quote:
It is possible that Kiya returned to Mittani when her father was assassinated,

In the article he speculates that Kiya is Tadukhipa, daughter of Tushratta.
Why I said Yr 17 when it so obviously says 16 - I don't know Rolling Eyes
The date 'more 1360bc' I mentioned would be just from net sources - I don't have any Hittite books - thats why I did'nt quote it as fact, we know what the nets like Confused

Quote:
Never fear, my luscious princess, people already know u're kinky. No need to publish my mails to make them do.

*gawd* do they? I thought I was being quite subtle Laughing
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
Dr Marc Gabolde states:
Quote:
Around Year XVI another important figure disappeared from the scene, Akhenaten's second wife, Kiya. (...) It is possible that Kiya returned to Mittani when her father was assassinated (...)

In the article he speculates that Kiya is Tadukhipa, daughter of Tushratta.

Why I said Yr 17 when it so obviously says 16 - I don't know Rolling Eyes
The date 'more 1360bc' I mentioned would be just from net sources - I don't have any Hittite books - thats why I did'nt quote it as fact, we know what the nets like Confused


Achie's rule has been dated by a bunch of scholars, but no real absolute data are known. These are some suggestions:

1419-1386 (Wente and van Siclen III)
1400-1390 (Hornung)
1397-1387 (Vandersleyen)
1372-1355 (Redford)
1367-1350 (Gardiner)
1364-1348 (Arnold)
1360-1343 (Dodson)
1353-1337 (Málek)
1353-1336 (Krauss, Murnane)
1352-1338 (Grimal)
1351-1334 (von Beckerath)
1340-1324 (Helck)

Most sources apply a reign of 16-17 years, but the most extreme data would be 1419BC for his ascension and 1324BC for Achie's death - I think it's clear opinions differ quite a bit. Smile I guess it's hardly possible to make an absolute chronology this way. If I use Murnane's theory, I'd get in trouble with the chronology-theories of Bryce and McMahon on Hittite and Mitanni rulers...
To go shortly:
sux.

I hope u don't mind I won't theorise too much in this minefield. If we take 1350BC as the date for Tush's death though, making it this 16th regnal year, that would mean Achie ascended to the throne around 1366BC, which corelates nicely with Gardiner's chronology. It's all possible, but it clearly depends on what timeline u use.

I think it's perfectly possible though Kiya could've been Tadukhipa, but then I start being annoying again. U can't base it on the name... Tadu-khipa has the same ending of Gilu-khipa. When Kiya resembles this "khipa"-sound, how was Gilukhipa called then? Would've mad more sense if Kiya wore a name based on "tadu". I'm still looking for the meaning of these Hurrian names by the way.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:

This is what I was referring too - Dr Marc Gabolde states:
Quote:
Around Year XVI another important figure disappeared from the scene, Akhenaten's second wife, Kiya.

Quote:
It is possible that Kiya returned to Mittani when her father was assassinated,



It seems from the treatment of Kiya's monuments that something more serious than just leaving the country happened.

Why would they try to erase her from history, just for returning to her home?
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