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Nefertiti's daughters
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Gypsy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
Baketaten seen at Amarna mainly with Tiye makes sense if :
Akhenaten is her father, her mother is dead, she live elsewhere with Tiye. Visiting her father from time to time is an absolute need.



Or that Tiye was her mother.
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Princesses have normaly all their titles; Baketaten is not known as king's sister. Tiye was near 50 when A III died. If she was the mother of Baketaten who was the father ?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smenkhkare = Meritaten!

(This is also possible because here Smenkhkare looks like a woman! :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Smenkhkare-wood.jpg)

and

"The skull of Smenkhkare" = the skull of Akhenaten?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: baseless speculation here! Reply with quote

Seshat wrote:
What was the basis for saying she was Kiya's daughter? It seems like Kiya gets tossed into the mix almost as a search and replace for the words "I don't know."
M.Gabolde in BSEG 16 (1992) Baketaton fille de Kiya ? concludes, on 4 pages, that Kiya is the more likely candidat. His work is based on several observations from G.Roeder & R.Hanke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amun wrote:
Smenkhkare = Meritaten!
This statue is discussed elsewhere on this forum. It would be nice if we stay on the open topic and forget wikipedia for a while.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
Princesses have normaly all their titles; Baketaten is not known as king's sister. Tiye was near 50 when A III died. If she was the mother of Baketaten who was the father ?


Possibly Akhenaten? Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Dodson/Hilton state (pg156) that Neferneferure may have even been buried in the Royal tomb itself? She would have been buried in chamber alpha (Meketaten being buried in chamber gamma).
As you mentionned J.Tyldesley, I reread it and found, that without saying why, she believes (P.162, 169 Penguin) chamber alpha shows the death of Kiya. Funny this is also my thought, the difference is that IMO the person at the bottom is Baketaten because only a t from the name is (was) visible.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the royal tomb in amarna was at one point believed to have hekd akhenaten, meketaten an di think setepenre right? they know that akhenaten was buried there, because his used sarcophagus is reconstructed in the cairo museum. and kiya is depicted on the walls, with tutanhamun i believe. nefertiti doesnt look to sad though. maybe she was happy the mother of a king was dead.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... and i think setepenre right?

No one known what happened to Setepenre. No reference to her burial have ever been found.

kylejustin wrote:
... and kiya is depicted on the walls, with tutanhamun i believe.

That's a theory by Gabolde, but it's not universally accepted.
There are a couple of speculative theories about who is depicted:
Kiya with Tut
Kiya with another child (If Kiya died giving birth to Tut then that most likely happened in year 9, although year 12 is also possible - depending on the regnal years of Ankheperure Neferneferuaten and /or Smenkhare)
Another depiction of Meketaten

Or the admission of experts who come straight out and say they don't know Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
tomb 29 may have belonged to Princes Neferneferure. The burial of the princess in this separate tomb may imply that she died some time after her father Akhenaten.


Just a question: Why does her burial in a different tomb imply she outlived her father? When a pharaoh was buried, was his tomb closed once and for all, and not even opened for family members, even if there was still room for other burials in it?

I know the princes/princesses buried in their father's tomb usually died before their father, just like the two children of Thutmose IV found in his tomb, but I don't know if it was some kind of rule. If Neferneferure outlived Akhenaten, it is strange hat she is not depicted with the other princesses in Meketaten's tomb.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferuaten wrote:
When a pharaoh was buried, was his tomb closed once and for all,
and not even opened for family members, even if there was still room for other burials in it?

Of the things you asked, I can only really answer you on this I'm afraid.
It's about 2 quite different, but related tomb-owner & -inhabitant issues.

1. Closed tomb, later re-opened to have others added to it.
With a stretch you can say that at least about the royal caches. Sad part is those weren't re-opened for the additions only: the priests didn't go search for a closed tomb, they had enough open tombs at their disposal due to tomb-robber activities. But it does make for a precedent (or antecedent) concerning additions of other dead royals to a King's tomb.

2. New tomb, in which an old "other" was added.
Or simply put: re-burial in someone else's new tomb. This happened with Thutmose I. The poor sod was dragged by Hatshepsut from his old grave into her own. And I'm actually quite confident that wasn't the only time such a re-burial (within a new tomb from a different owner) happened.

Putting it shortly: unless conclusive evidence or even the possibility of interpretation exists, you cannot state for certain that one died before or after another, only based on the existence or absence of separate tombs. Ramesside princes often had private tombs for instance, even when it is more than clear they died before their divine fathers. Basing a timeline on the existence of separate tombs is a dangerous thing to do. In the case of Neferneferure I believe there are other reasons as well to consider what Anneke said.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i guess it's quite possible that maritaten and ankhsenpaaten tasherit are the daughters of ankhsenamun named after tut's favourite sisters. i always wondered why the two baby girls in tut's tomb were never named. maybe they are the tasherit princesses. and maybe they're not tut's. it's not like the government ever dna tested hem against tut.

and thutmose I was moved from his tomb into hatshepsut's, and when she died, thutmose III moved him into a new tomb. but it's all complicated
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: ***? Reply with quote

Maybe the tasherit girls were *** children of the princesses by someone whom they probably should not have been carrying on an affair with? Perhaps their names "mother, junior", which seem pretty unusual for royal children are an equivalent of giving someone the last name of "fitz-father's name" in the english nobility?
Just an idle speculation with absolutely no evidence, but I thought it was worth throwing out because I've never heard it discussed....people are always trying to shoehorn these girls into the royal family. Do they have the King's Daughter epithet?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: ***? Reply with quote

Seshat wrote:
1. Perhaps their names "mother, junior", which seem pretty unusual for royal children
2. Do they have the King's Daughter epithet?

1. Not so unusual : Neferneferuaten-junior fourth daughter of Neferneferuaten-Nefernefertiti.
2. Yes they do.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: ***? Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
Seshat wrote:
2. Do they have the King's Daughter epithet?

2. Yes they do.


have you seen that written or explained? the books never explain their relation to tut, and i thought that's because they didn't know the relation
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