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Questions about several things, mainly Maat
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conorp
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ma'at
by Marianne Dixon
An Egyptian goddess who personified the concepts of truth, cosmic order and justice. This concept was fundamental to Egyptian life and the rule of the Pharaohs. The Kings portrayed themselves constantly as "Beloved of Ma'at" and upholders of the universal order. This role was established by their divine predecessor Horus, who defeated the forces of the chaotic god Seth.

Judges in both human and divine spheres were known as representatives of Ma'at. At the final judgement of souls that Ma'at helped to determine the ultimate fate of the deceased. In the Hall of the Two Truths, the heart of the deceased would be weighed by Anubis against the Feather of Truth, which was Ma'at's symbol. If the verdict was favorable then the deceased could look forward to a happy afterlife; if not, the hapless soul was quickly devoured by the hybrid Ammit. Ma'at was usually depicted as a woman wearing a large ostrich feather in her headband. This Feather formed the Hieroglyph of her name and could be used by itself as an abstract representation of the goddess.


Source: http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/mythology/africa/egyptian/maat.html
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ma'at or Mašt is the personified godess of ma'at or mašt.
This meaning harmony, justice, peace, order.
That which is good, right, just.

This concerns ethics as well as every other aspect of AE daily life.
mašt was aspired in everyday actions and considered a greater good.
It basically is the prime aspect of AE religion and its daily "use".
Throughout history you find similar ethic belief systems, that inspired people "to do the right thing".

On the opposite of mašt you find "isfet" which is often translated as "chaos".
For instance AE people believed Egypt to be a bubble of mašt amidst the oustide world.
When the King is shown "smiting Asiatics" this is a form of mašt for instance.
He controls, punishes, abolishes disorder, chaos (isfet), and affirms and creates order (mašt).
You find this also in an often recurring type of royal texts: the King inherits a state of disorder, and makes it right.
Bringing order, justice, righteousness into the world, makes the King "rightful".
In bringing mašt to the "world" the King does what he's intended to do.

Just thought I'd add that. Confused
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maat = "Logos"
_____________________________________________________________
Nun = the primordial waters = (like "water" of Thales? )
_____________________________________________________________
Shu = "Air", "dry"

Tefnut = "Water", "the moisture of the sky"

Geb = "Earth"

Nut = "Sky"

(The Greek classical elements were Fire, Water, Earth and Air!)

Is it true? Idea

_____________________________________________________________

I also wrote them on my "The Greek Philosophers and Egypt" thread...

(but no one writes comments on it! Sad )
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Mandi, for a very interesting thread.

As I understand it, Akhenaten was too sophisticated to believe in gods, and as Anneke said (Fri 18/4/0Cool he erased their determinative hieroglyphic signs wherever possible, but he could hardly deny the general concepts they traditionally represented.

His 'Hymn to the Aten', which depicts all processes as dependent on the energy of the sun, suggests that he even had a rudimentary grasp of what we call the second law of thermodynamics. M3at (associated with Osiris in the next world) would then be understood as 'order', or 'decrease in entropy' with the jzft or Seth concepts at the opposite pole. These are fully scientific, not religious notions, and must have taken some explaining to the populace at large.

Akhenaten needed to lessen the interference of superstitious, ambitious and grasping priests in the running of the mammoth international enterprise that Egypt had by that time become. He therefore followed the precedent of similarly-challenged MK pharaoh Amenemhat I (Reeves, 2005, pp 104-5), and relocated his capital city. Later Egyptian history bears out that the decline of pharaonic power would be accompanied by a corresponding rise in the importance of the Theban priesthood of Amun, so in that respect Akhenaten was surely prescient, if ultimately unsuccessful.

After the English Restoration of 1660 AD, Charles II had the body of Cromwell (who, somewhat like Akhenaten, had insisted on being depicted "warts and all") exhumed and beheaded. The heretic pharaoh's memory suffered a similar fate after the post-Amarna restoration, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Akhenaten was, in reality, mad, bad, or dangerous to know. The monotheistic religions may actually owe much of the wording of the biblical First Commandment to him.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Genesis 1: 1-10) Let's read it again:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
_____________________________________________________________

Heaven = Air?

Light = Fire?

Earth = Earth!

Water = Water!
_____________________________________________________________

Nun = the primordial waters = (like "water" of Thales? )
_____________________________________________________________
Shu = "Air", "dry"

Tefnut = "Water", "the moisture of the sky"

Geb = "Earth"

Nut = "Sky"

The Greek classical elements were Fire, Water, Earth and Air!
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx Amun.
I think most have read it by now.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short article about Maat : http://www.jtsa.edu/Documents/pagedocs/JANES/1995%2023/MFox23.pdf
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:15 pm    Post subject: I am truly greatful Reply with quote

I am really excited and unbelievably greatful for all the responses i am getting. It is actually hugely helpful in understanding this concept.... Which, has been a pain for several weeks now... My mind has continuously returned to it. Because it seems like everything else related to Egypt is for lack of a better word connected and or driven by it. I am also glad you all are finding this discussion as interesting as i am.

Khuy-n-inpw, i also had a sense that some of this movement and change of relgion had more to do with state and power than with anything related to spirituality. I am glad i am not alone in that. Sometimes i wonder how far off base my thoughts are, as again, i am merely a student starting out. I only have so many pieces of the puzzle. (As does everyone there are things we will never know, sadly, lost to time.)

Amun, Yes, interesting Genesis thing.... Sorry... I was raised by uber Buddhist parents in a buddhist commune. And when i got out... My initial interaction with christians were rather ugly as they were very agressive and intrusive.... And kinda scary. So, i pulled as far from their bible as i could get and have actually never even held one. Some things one can't seem to escape due to our society's underlieing value system etc. And some stuff i have come across studying history.... But in general the bible is something i know nothing about. So thank you for posting that. Lastly, I have come to understand the difference between mentally ill and christian since that time. Some claiming religion really need to claim their appointment in the psych ward. Other religiously christian ppl i have met, are very non agressive and are quite rational and reasonable and decent. But that initial experience kinda well... i hope you all understand...
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Amun
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, I'm not a christian...I'm a Turk!

I want to say that not only the Greeks, the Egyptians and the Jews also knew about 4 classical elements...And they knew them before Empedocles (490-430 BC) !
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: empedocles? Reply with quote

Do they taste like chicken? Or are they fruity and delicious?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're fruity alright...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: emmm Reply with quote

what exactly are they? It's actually hugely rare i come across a word with which i am not familiar. (Seriously, it almost never happens. The last time i was 10. So you have just done something roughly impossible. What are empidocles?

Fruity? Would they taste even yummier with choclate sauce?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: emmm Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
What are empidocles?

Best laugh I had in days. Sounds so damn cute! (not meant degrading at all)
Empidocles was a Greek philosopher, who created a conception theory in which four elements are called the roots of all things: fire, air, water and soil (earth). These roots are eternal and invariable: they neither originate from something else nor turn into each other and all other things come from a combination of these elements.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Well i am glad my ignorance is amusing to someone Reply with quote

cuz it sure as he*ll is not in the least bit amusing to me. Thank you once again for giving me an education. I have spent far too much time letting my butt get kicked by my own non functioning brain. I lost somewhere between 7 and 15 years of my life. Because i couldn't handle much of anything... (specially anything academic) But then i met someone amazing who knew what was wrong with me. And they fixed me. And now... I can do anything. You can't imagine how freeing that is. Or how behind one is when such a time is over. So please, be patient as i will get there... I just have to adjust as academics is as much a function of a learned behavior as it is the actual ability to enact the behavior. So now that i am able to get a degree, and stuff that is first on my list. It means so much to me to be able to study. The ability to accumulate knowledge may seem like something so basic, simple and small... Kinda like reading a book... But there are those who have to go through quite alot more than most to get there. Never take all the information you have accumulated for granted, if you are gifted enough to have a level playing field... So please excuse the missing pieces in my education and lack there of.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Well i am glad my ignorance is amusing to someone Reply with quote

Please don't appologise. Confused
It's not ignorance you have: it's the will to study.
Very big difference and it earns respect.

Mandi wrote:
I lost somewhere between 7 and 15 years of my life.

The fact that you enjoy what you have now, shows those years have not been without purpose.
You wouldn't be able to appreciate your current state of life if you had not gone through such a period.
Trust me: one cannot fully appreciate the sunlight if one hasn't seen the dark of night.
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