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Akkk! New question!!!

 
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Mandi
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Akkk! New question!!! Reply with quote

Just picked up my book of lectures.... And so i am just getting started when it states that christianity infitrates the middle line (meroe area) in the absense of the Meroitic kindom... all these little christian kingdoms form... But small problem... Nowhere does it say what happened to the Meroic period and its government and structure etc....

What happened to it??? Certainly, it was not all beamed up by a UFO by some lil green men....
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Akkk! New question!!! Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
christianity infiltrates the middle nile (meroe area)

Infiltration is the key word here.
Nobody got abducted by Romulans.
They merely got assimilated by the Borg.
Weak joke, but it's half serious.

The christian kingdoms assimilated the older "pagan" tiny states.
Those had already been thoroughly influenced by the Greeks by the way.
After 300CE you really cannot speak of the Meroitic culture anymore.
It had already been "infected" too much with outside influences.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Maybe my mind is weak Reply with quote

I found your joke highly amusing actually but then again i havent really slept a good night in like 2 weeks now.

I think it is interesting that you blame christian infiltration as it would seem according to the material i am reading there was an almost "intermediate" period post Meroe in which 3 major kingdoms sort of grew up and actually asi kept reading i got some suggestions as to what happened. Some claim it was the Ethiopians Axsomethin (as i said no sleep) Others say it was internal barbarians..... But such a wording barbarians? In which sense??? The archeological sense or the the more standard meaning? It wasn't till atleast about roughly a hundred or more years till the christians came in. or so says my study material. First there was all this weird cultural change that naturally happened on it's own visible in the pottery and then we start to see christianity reflected in the ceramics.... But honestly, i have no idea how well this time period is understood i am afraid. Nor do i have a sufficient understanding to as of yet hoold my own opinion on this subject... Though every bit of information i take in leaves me that much closer to such a goal. Anyway, my book discusses Makuria, Nobadia, and atleast one other group and it says at the beginning they were pagan and though in the early times the royalty may have leaned toward Xtianity, it wasn't till a *bit* later that there was mass conversion and the church sent their people out to Nubia it was one of (maybe the last) pagan hold out for a little while. (Atleast that is what i am reading)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol apparently none of yall have heard of the little kingdom called Aksum Laughing In bout 350 AD the kingdom's forces attacked Meroe, destroying the empire, as well as its pagan religion. Couple centuries later, voila Christian Nubia Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:00 am    Post subject: Not so sure about that.... Reply with quote

Please forgive me for argueing this point as i openly accept you could very well be correct. I have heard this theory, and it doesn't seem farfetched, All the same the evidence (so my school books say) is made up of a few coins and some bit of writing (I think the book claimed it was greek... But i would have to look it up to be certain) That is all they have that indicate such a thing. *1* text from those in Ethiopia. If i am wrong.... Please say so. I am merely going by the education i have received thus far, (Which is not much) As for other evidence supporting the take over... It seems pretty scarce and it does not appear that Nubia was annexed so to speak according to the archeaological record, (once again according to my text books) Though they also do admit this is a possibility that Nubia was taken over by those from the Ethiopian area. I, personally would like to see more evidence for it before i accept it as fact, but maybe it is just my lacking in education that i have not seen more evidence if so, please enlighten me. If not... well such is life.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dadude wrote:
Lol apparently none of yall have heard of the little kingdom called Aksum

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1720
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=823
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1540
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1537

There's a search button at the top of the page, between FAQ and Memberlist.
Aksum (Axum) never invaded the state of MeroŽ, as it had ceased to exist already.
It was only the city of MeroŽ that became invaded by Axum forces.
Some would call this a skirmish rather than an occupation.

The Kingdom of MeroŽ by then had already been divided up in smaller chieftainships.
Axum had a definite influence on these post-MeroŽ lands.
Which later on became Nobatia, Makkura and Alwa.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
Nowhere does it say what happened to the Meroitic period and its government and structure etc....


Edwards, David N. The Nubian Past: An Archaeology of the Sudan, 2004

Page 182:

"Sometime in the early fourth century, if not before, the political and cultural hegemony of Meroe and the Meroitic kings seems to have begun to disappear. At the heart of the kingdom, Meroe itself declined as a major centre of population, with the abandonment of its public buildings and perhaps, over a more extended period, its abandonment as a major settlement. Temples and palaces went out of use, some may have been deliberately destroyed. By the middle of the fourth century the building of royal pyramid tombs at Meroe also seems to have ceased. When exactly remains unknown. The last reasonably secure date we have for a Meroitic king is for a King Teqorideamani, in AD 253. The reconstructed royal genealogies suggest that there could have been as many as six later kings buried at Meroe; the later is unlikely to date much after AD 350.

The next few centuries were period of transition, both politically and culturally. Following the apparent disappearance of a central authority at Meroe, a unifying imperial culture also disappears, being replaced by a number of regional traditions. These in turn may be linked tentatively with the development of a series of smaller successor states. Nothing is recorded of their early history, but by the late fifth century we begin to glimpse of a new regional power in Lower Nubia, Nobadia or Noubadia, and in the early sixth century the two kingdoms of Makuria and Aldia further south. This new political order was also soon to be closely linked with the new religion of Christianity."

Page 210:

"The conventional narratives of the "end of Meroe" seem increasingly difficult to sustain; by their nature they are also very difficult to relate to the archaeological data. Issues surrounding the supposed "Noba migrations" also remain difficult to resolve. What is apparent, however, is that if there were any significant population movements in the late Meroitic period they have left little obvious trace archaeologically. Populations movements are also not necessary to explain the cultural changes taking place during this period. The one area where we can identify intrusive populations during this period is the Dodekaschoinos, where the Blemmye presence is readily identifiable.

Most of the more important cultural changes we can currently identify seem to have been taking place in more elite circles, and the institutions associated with them. What lay behind these changes remain far from clear, although interestingly parallels may be drawn with similar processes underway in the late Roman Empire as new political and ethnic identities emerged around barbarian military leaders. That this was a period of insecurity and violence seems likely. These are tantalizing signs of episodes of violence and destruction at Meroe, even if attributing them to invading Noba or raiding Axumites now seems less convincing than it did to earlier generations of scholars. Military prowess and capacity also appear more obvious in this period, with the higher profile of military equipment and fortified sites. Much more remains to be learnt about this period."

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:41 am    Post subject: Yes, it sounds like there are plenty of theories Reply with quote

And all we know for certain is that there was wide spread abandonment. As well as a split into 3 followed by a progression towards christianity. But i am wondering *why* they would abandon just like that.... In that same portion of the book you are quoting it also relates that Axium is an, how was it put... "atractive" theory or something roughly to that effect. It also says earlier that it was believed the Nubians pretty much destroyed themselves... due to barbarianis.... It sounds like no one really knows. There is however some written document that declares Meroe to be somehow "vassalized" or something of Axium Even coins were mentioned. Yes it does also mention the Blemmyes (however it is spelled, sorry i am actually dyslexic and i can provide you with the paper work proving that from every year from the age of 4 up through the present day all signed by legitimate experts, please forgive spelling errors...) Who exactly are the Blemmyes? Maybe there isn't just one answer? Hard to imagine 1 thing destroying such an empire....Maybe it was a combination of several things? I don't really know how much can be said about Nubia at all... Though it would seem lack of understanding of the language and inability to dig in many areas and it's being a newer sort of study, maybe actually make theorizing about really much of anything rather premature. But maybe as i am just beginning this study it is just me who doesn't have substantial information and not infact all of us.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Yes, it sounds like there are plenty of theories Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
Though it would seem lack of understanding of the language and inability to dig in many areas and it's being a newer sort of study, maybe actually make theorizing about really much of anything rather premature.


From what I have read recently this is also their conclusion, as it stands today. I'm talking about Bonnet and Edwards who has written extensively about Kush.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: Yes, it sounds like there are plenty of theories Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
Who exactly are the Blemmyes?


"Blemmyes" was the name given by the Greeks and Romans to the nomads of the eastern desert between the Nile and the Red Sea. The Blemmyes makes their first authentic appearance on the stage of history, coming from a source which is entirely unknown, about the year 240 BC, when they are first mentioned by Eratosthenes, and they vanish from literature after the reign of the Emperor Justinian about 563 AD.

Regarding their origin, the most discordant views have been current from early times. Pliny makes them come from Central Africa. Eratosthenes, Theocritus, Plolemy, and Dionysius Periegetes place them, on the contrary, near Meroe and the Astaboras. These apparent contradictions are explained by Etienne Quatremere, who thinks it is possible to reconcile these view, and says that it is a question of supposing that the Blemmyes, a nomadic wandering people, did not always occupy the same territory; their habitat was near Aksum and Adulis, but afterwards they spread towards Nubia, and ended by settling in the vast deserts which stretch to the east of Egypt towards the Red Sea.

Reference:

Smith, G. Elliot. The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report on the Human Remains, 2002, page 363

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:18 am    Post subject: Sorry i wanted to get back to you sooner Reply with quote

First let me say this computer is evil in every respect. It belongs to my fiance, and comes all the way from Finland and has a bunch of weird keys that keep screwing me up so... Please, don't judge my typing too harshly.. My computer, decided that Cleo 7 had the right idea and has sadly killed itself, much to my great annoyance and financial inconvenience.

I wanted to thank you for the explanation on the Blemmyes Makes me quite curious actually as no one really knows where they came from.

As for Edwards for 1, he seems very intelligent and a lovely source of information on many matters. But i wonder sometimes if what he is suggesting in places is a bit more leaning towards wishful thinking as opposed to hard core fact. Maybe my view is just way off base.but i find some of his word choices a bit... I dunno... just maybe mildly (loadedd) (I can't figure out vitun quotation marks on this computer) For example, at one point he talks about some sort of (crap i need those quotations again... Good goddess, i think i am gonna cry soon this computer is soooooo annoying, otherwise i will just curse it up one end and down the other in it's own native language.) 'water containers' He mentions a theory that they were excavated by the Meroitic people. I am a bit concerned about the word excavated.... It carries a certain implication. And the words, dug up, still express they were brought up from below but in a less loaded way, for example. There are quite a number of such wordings that strike me as a bit.... odd... And i guess, i worry because it seems he has a great many theories... I guess i am one of those strange people who views archaeology as a humanity rather than a science. A humanity that employs science to gain answers to the questions we have. Science is a very very important tool.... I think, with really just about nothing to go on setting up a hypothesis, and seeking to prove it, maybe just excavating more open mindedly with nothing but questions would be a better way to go? I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong i am sure they are not, But i do find that when people are sort of looking for something they generally find it because facts can always be bent... so can other facts.... and soon you find wow when you twist them like so it all adds up! (I am NOT saying Edwards does anything of the sort) But i am just noting a few things that make me a little uncomfortable with portions of the text. And it could all just be that i have trust issues, and i would question the sky on weather it is infact blue or not. Edwards, as i said is very intelligent with alot of experience. i am just a lowly student trying to learn, I am sure Edwards knows far more about these things than i do.
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