Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The 400 year stela
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:08 am    Post subject: The 400 year stela Reply with quote

This is somewhat related to the posts under Ramses I, but I have a different question here.

There's a 400 year stela, where Ramses I celebrates his ancestors.
Quote:
May the strong bull [1] beloved of Ma'at [2] live, the lord of the Sed festival [2] , like his father Ptah-Tanen , the King of Upper and Lower Egypt , User-Ma'at-Re , Setep-en-Re , son of Re , Ramses-Meri-Amen [4] , endowed with life,
    he who is under the tutelage of the two Ladies [5], the protector of Egypt, the conqueror of neighbouring countries, Re who gave birth to all gods, who ordered the Double-land [6], Golden Horus rich in years and great in victories,
    the King of Upper and Lower Egypt User-Ma'at-Re Setep-en-Re, son of Re, Ramses Meri-Amen, the prince who furnished the Double-Land with monuments in his name
    in order that the sun may shine in all its love, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt User-Ma'at-Re Setep-en-Re, son of Re, Ramses-Meri-Amen

    His Majesty has commanded to raise a great stela in granite for the great name of his fathers, in order to raise the name of the father of his fathers
    ( and for ) his father the King Men-Ma'at-Re, son of Re, Seti Mer-ne-Ptah lasting for eternity, like Re every day.

    Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti [11], beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.

    The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King [7], the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay [9], the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry
    the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat [10], the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice, son of the Prince regent, the mayor of the town, the vizier,
    the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, Paramesse [12], right of voice, born from the mistress of the house, the songstress of Re, Tiw, right of voice, he says :

    Hail to thee, o Seth, son of Nut, great of strength in the boat of millions of years, in the bow of the ship of Re, the great screamer ....
    .. [ mayest thou ] give me a good time for following [13] your Ka and may I be lasting in ....
After a French translation by R.Monfort



But 400 years of what???

Wouldn't 400 years put us back in Hyksos time?
Why refer back to a time so long ago?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should give credit where credit is due. This text comes from the following website:
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/400_year_stela.htm
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hehe I'm going to point out a typo of yours Twisted Evil
The stela was erected by Ramses II

I think 400yrs would put them back to the early days of the Second Intermediate Period. Could dating it from this time be their version of rememberence of a dark period - a little like we do with the world wars.
Its a pretty specific date he gives on the stela - Yr 400, month, day etc - so he must have had a specific date in the past that he is alluding to.
Or does 400 yrs have some sort of symbolic meaning?

I actually would have thought though, that dating a stela from the time of expelling the Hyksos would be more appropriate.
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it's definitely R II who erected the stela. Very Happy

I think the 400 years puts them back at the invasion of the Hyksos.

They build a capital on the site of Avaris. Their ancestor stela harks back to the beginning of the Hysos period.
Are they telling us in (not too subtle terms) that they ARE Hyksos??? Or at least descendents of them?

I just think this is strange.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, there were certainly foreigners moving into Egypt at that time.
Could we s-t-r-e-t-c-h things and say its a date their ancestors moved into the Delta area?
Might be a bit cheeky but, to steal a phrase from the Israelites - settling in 'the Promised Land'.

It is interesting, for sure Smile
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
Yeah, there were certainly foreigners moving into Egypt at that time.
Could we s-t-r-e-t-c-h things and say its a date their ancestors moved into the Delta area?
Might be a bit cheeky but, to steal a phrase from the Israelites - settling in 'the Promised Land'.

It is interesting, for sure Smile


Was quite the thing I was thinking of. I'd guess it referred to a (imaginary) genealogy that went back to as much as 400 years, making Ramses' ancestors an old(er) line (than it probably was).
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: The 400 year stela Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Quote:
His Majesty has commanded to raise a great stela in granite for the great name of his fathers, in order to raise the name of the father of his fathers (and for) his father the King Men-Ma'at-Re, son of Re, Seti Mer-ne-Ptah lasting for eternity, like Re every day.

Year 400, the fourth month of the season of Shammu, the fourth day of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Seth-Great-of-valor, son of Re whom he loves, Nubti [11], beloved by Re-Hor-akhty, may he live for ever.

The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King [7], the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw [8], the great of Medjay [9], the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat [10], the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice, son of the Prince regent, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry, Paramesse [12], right of voice, born from the mistress of the house, the songstress of Re, Tiw, right of voice (...)


Are we sure this date of '4OO years' dates back to something? Could u get ur hands on the rest of the text? It seems to go back in time, like Sethi I - Paramesse - ... Maybe this could teach us something, not only on the line of Ramses, but on the date this text is 'going back' at.
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seg wrote
Quote:
Was quite the thing I was thinking of. I'd guess it referred to a (imaginary) genealogy that went back to as much as 400 years, making Ramses' ancestors an old(er) line (than it probably was).

You saying that just reminded me of the Kings List in Seti's Abydos Temple. He and Ramses standing before the names of previous kings.
They liked to associate themselves with past royalty it seems - underscores their own right to rule, if that was still necessary. Ramses II surely liked to do things bigger and better, thinking here of his building competition with Amen III.
Don't know if he's trying to fabricate a royal ancestory though - at least what is shown here on the stea is not fabricated, and his family had to have come from somewhere. A 400yr family history in the Delta could be a good reason for building a capital and carving a stela.

The stela (at least the translated portion) appears to end there with Paramesse and Tiw (this is Sitre?). I wonder if there was more? Be interesting to know if he does go on back in time further - good point my Precious. Smile
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: The 400 year stela Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:

Are we sure this date of '4OO years' dates back to something? Could u get ur hands on the rest of the text? It seems to go back in time, like Sethi I - Paramesse - ... Maybe this could teach us something, not only on the line of Ramses, but on the date this text is 'going back' at.


Why else would they write "400 years"? Usually when you have some reconing of time, the start of time has a specific meaning.

This seems to be what they have of the text. This is as much as I have ever seen of it.

I'm not sure if they ever meant to create 400 years of genealogy Very Happy

I always assumed that they wanted to record their immediate family.

The way it's written is rather confusing to me.

We have Paramessu, born of Tuy? Or are the claiming that Seti was born of Tuy. Depends on how you parse the sentence I think.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the confusion is partially due to the translation.
I'll try finding some more on this.
Quite an intruiging piece of work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a copy at touregypt with some annotations
http://touregypt.net/400yearstele.htm

Breasted must have included it in his writing I hope (assuming it had been discovered then).
Would be interesting to see what he has to say about it.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Breasted the 400 year Stela is dated to the 400th year of the Hyksos King Opehtiset-Nubti (Nubti for short).
Somehow this ruler was still revered in Tanis at that time.

I had wondered who this Nubti was....

Breasted says that the stela was erected at Tanis.

(It's on pg 226 of volume 3 btw.)

Breasted explains that it is not known when this stela was erected. He makes some argument that ramses may have died after commissioning the stela, and that it was finished by Merneptah.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw this interesting interpretation:
Quote:
The 400 Year Inscription at Tanis

"At the top of the monument is a relief, showing Ramses II offering wine to Set. Behind the king stands Seti, THE AUTHOR OF THE MONUMENT..." [Breasted, `Records,' Vol. III, Sec. 539]

This short description by Breasted hides important, chronologically helpful information. The wine Ramses II offers is to the Hyksos god Seth, whom we meet in the words of Balaam where he refers to this gods followers as `the children of Seth', meaning the Amalekites/Hyksos of his days. [Numbers 24:17; For a drawn image of this scene see M. Bietak, `Avaris the Capital of the Hyksos', p.77, Fig. 62] This scene with the god Seth, a god made famous during Hyksos times, strengthens our point that the 400 year stele memorializes the revolution against the Amalekite/Hyksos occupiers of Egypt which was 400 years in the past about the time that Seti the Great/Psammetichus saw the end of his life coming and commissioned his son Ramesses II to dedicate this stele. The stele may be the closest we can come to an Egyptian version for their Independence Day.


from: http://www.specialtyinterests.net/inscr400.html
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what Breasted had to say about it:

"This monument was erected at Tanis by an important official of Ramses II, named Seti. He had been dispatched thither to erect a stela in honor of Seti I, and improved the opportunity to place a stela of his own, bearing a record of his visit in the temple, to which he appended prayers for the favors of the god, as so many officials did in Abydos. Although headed with the full titulary of Ramses II, the document is dated in the four hundreth year of King Opehtiset-Nubti, a Hyksos ruler. This remarkable fact shows that the reign of this king began an era - the only one known in Egypt - which had survived in use at Tanis into the Ramessid times. unfortunately, the stela does not give the year of Ramses II in which it was erected. Wiedemann dates it, as it seems to me with probability, at Ramses II's death. In any case, the knowledge of the lapse of 400 years between the Hyksos Nubti and some year of Ramses II is of great value.

At the top of the monument is a relief, showing Ramses II offering wine to Set. Behind the king stands Seti, the author of the monument, praying, as follows: (here follows the same text as published on Touregypt)"

I picked out something remarkable in Breasted's translation:
"In the year 4OO, in the fourth month of the third season, on the fourth day, of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Opehtiset (mentioning of original form 3-phty-St, meaning "Great and Forceful is Seth"), Son of Re, his beloved: Nubti (strangely 'linked' to the nickname of Seth after the place of his greatest reverence, Ombos, originally called Nubt), whom Harakhte desires to be forever and ever (...)"
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...
Parallel thoughts?
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group