Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

His and hers sandals on Tutankhamuns throne
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: His and hers sandals on Tutankhamuns throne Reply with quote

The following question was raised by a member of another forum and I thought it an interesting observation. I asked if it was ok to post it here and see what you guys thought. Smile
Regarding the inside back panel of the throne we see Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun together. Each appears to be wearing only one sandal - the inside sandal - why is that??
Good image here from Anneke's site

Has the outside sandal of each figure just been broken off or not completed? Is this symbolic of a theology? Or love and partnership? The original poster has had several such suggestions but has anyone read of any substantial interpretations?
What say you Idea
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had never noticed that Smile

The image belongs to Richard Seaman btw.

Isn't there some interpretation of a person with sandals as being a living person but a person without saandals a statue and possibly deified?
My guess would be that this could indicate some sense of duality?

Tutankhamen and Ankhesenamen as living gods? That would fit with the theology of the time. Amenhotep and Tiye as well as Akhenaten and Nefertiti were seen as living gods if I understand this correctly.

This is just a guess mind you Smile
I don't remember ever seeing this discussed in any book or article I have read.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just like Anneke, I have never seen an explanation for this design.
Sandals from What I understand are a symbol of power. I just wonder if what we see was a mean to say they were sharing the power. After all Ankhesenamun was 5 years older than Tutankhamun. Considering that in general girls are more matured than boys, that Ankhesenamun may have been the queen of Merytaten, in the early years it was making sense for them to rule as a team.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goodness, I never noticed that, either. I would have to say the throne was deliberately finished that way, so it certainly makes me curious. I just ran a query through Google and it looks like quite a few people out there have raised the same question. The most common argument is that it's simply an expression of the love the two shared and I admit that's what popped into my head first, but anneke's and Gerard's suggestions are more compelling, I think.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
conorp
Priest
Priest


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, i didn't see this either.

I don't really believe that this is the reason but i read somewhere that Egyptian kings sometimes had images/ names of there enemy's on the bottom of there shoes. Could Egypt had only had 1 enemy at the time, so one shoe was worn.???????
_________________
How to start a blog

Photos And Information about Egyptian objects in Australia

Pompeii news and photos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The image of enemies on the bottoms of the king's sandals is true. As the Egyptians looked at it, one might argue, nearly everyone outside Egypt was either an enemy or a potential enemy, and so we have the "Nine Bows" concept.

I don't know if Egypt was actively engaged in war at the time of Tutankhamun, at least not as we would think of it in terms of the reign of Tuthmosis III, but probably the Egyptians were on campaigns against numerous foreigners; we see this vividly depicted on the walls of Horemheb's private tomb at Saqqara, where prisoners of war are led in procession for Tut's review. However, this may have been more the case of Egypt flexing its muscle and reminding foreigners of its power after the Amarna interlude.

There were of course the Hittites, in the time of Suppiluliuma, and although they did fight engagements with the Egyptians in Syria at about this time, I think the Hittites then were more concerned with their conquest of the Mitanni. I'm not sure if the Hittites were as big an enemy of Egypt right then as many have tried to paint them to be, but I could be mistaken.

The enemies depicted on the bottom of the king's sandals were more symbolic than anything. As Pharaoh walked he "trampled" them underfoot, subduing his enemies and keeping them at bay, making sure Egypt was safe from the Nine Bows, as every Egyptian king was expected to do.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
DaveB
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 63
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

Isn't there some interpretation of a person with sandals as being a living person but a person without saandals a statue and possibly deified?
My guess would be that this could indicate some sense of duality?


I think this sounds the most plausable. Some sort of power sharing / duality idea( symbolisum for the two lands ). I think the whole love thing about sharing is to modern, I'm not sure they would of seen it that way.
That chair is amazing, anyone got a higher res picture of it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Rozette
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1186
Location: Belguim

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year during the Friends of Saqqara day at Leiden there was a lecture by Marianne Eaton-Krauss, who told about the thrones, stools and chairs from the tomb of Tutankhamen.

Eaton-Kraus discussed the Gold throne, in the summary on the website of the Friends of Saqqara nothing was said about the sandals.

Quote : The names of the king and his queen had been altered. The god Aten has been changed to Amun, but the redo appears only were the inscription was embossed in the gold plating. This part of the text was easiest to alter. Some believe this throne was not made for Tutankhamun, but Eaton-Krauss only sees one big alteration, from Tutankhaten to Tutankhamun. If there were any other adjustments before Tutankhaten, the traces of the changes made are not visible anymore.

In September 2007 the book of Marianne Eaton-Kraus about this subject has appeared with a lot of unique photo's and sketches.


The Thrones, Chairs, Stools, and Footstools from the Tomb of Tutankhamun
by M. Eaton-Krauss, incorporating the records made by Walter Segal

This book publishes some of the most significant and frequently illustrated objects from Tutankhamun's tomb. His gold throne, which figured prominently in accounts of the tomb's discovery, and the less well-known inlaid ebony throne, have never left Egypt because they are too delicate to travel. The structure, decoration, and texts of these thrones and of two others are analysed. The rest of the book treats the remaining chairs, stools, and footstools found in the tomb. Notes on construction and scale drawings which the innovative German-English architect Walter Segal (1907-1985) made in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo in 1935 provide the point of departure for the book. M. Eaton-Krauss supplements his records with comparative material and her own observations, as well as description and analysis of the decoration and presentation of the texts. Harry Burton's photographic record made during the clearance of the tomb is supplemented by photographs taken by Segal and by the author. 148p + 75 drawings and plates (Griffith Institute 2008)

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/83033

In the book by T.G.H. James De Grote Farao's I found a very big picture of the golden throne. I noticed that there are other anomalies on this throne scene. Ankhesenamun only wears one bracelet, Tutankhamun has one on each arm. The chair were Tutankhamun sits on has also an anomaly.If you look to the heraldic plants under the chair you will see that there is a missing part of the grill.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Thanks for your input everyone. Its a curious scene and quite intrigues me.

My thoughts are also along the lines of there being perhaps some form of power sharing between the two. Tutankhamun was a young chap at coronation and I think its plausable Ankhes may have acted in a mentor/regent type role, since she seems to have been the eldest of the surviving royal family. I thought its also interesting that Ankhes in this scene is wearing the crown worn earlier by Tiye and Nefertiti at times - taking over their roles in the solar theology now that she is the great royal wife and a living goddess?
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
conorp
Priest
Priest


Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know i am being a bit obvious but since the aten is at the top over tut would that show that this was made at amarna, possibly when he wasn't king?
_________________
How to start a blog

Photos And Information about Egyptian objects in Australia

Pompeii news and photos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
neferwiwi
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Geneva, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a photo that I took myself. I have it as a screensaver on my computer. It blows up huge ! You will notice that they are wearing sandals on both feet. But the thong parts are only missing, the soles are clearly there (though also broken in front). It would seem that the thongs broke away, or ripped away (you can see a trace of the thong on the top of T's foot). During transportation from the tomb ? In antiquity ? Caught on clothing and snagged off ? (See A's right foot. The thong is quite big and projects into the seating area of the thone).

Put it as as screensaver, you will see !

[/img]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neferwiwi wrote:
You will notice that they are wearing sandals on both feet. But the thong parts are only missing, the soles are clearly there (though also broken in front).

Since the glyph for ‘sandal-strap’ (ankh) was used in words connected with ‘life’ because of the consonance of the consonants, perhaps the artist wished to indicate that Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun both died young?

Idea
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khuy-n-inpw wrote:
Since the glyph for ‘sandal-strap’ (ankh) was used in words connected with ‘life’ because of the consonance of the consonants, perhaps the artist wished to indicate that Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun both died young?
This identification of the Ankh sign is from the imagination of early egyptologists. Several signs have a curious identification.
When the throne was brought in KV62, Ankhesenamun was alive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
This identification of the Ankh sign is from the imagination of early egyptologists.


I got it from Allen (2000/2001)

Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could get it from nearly everybody, this is the most common identification. When it comes to identification of signs, most authors follow a tradition. The subject is not considered as an important issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group