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Question "Arms Crossed Aross the Chest"

 
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ZericsKirog
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:47 am    Post subject: Question "Arms Crossed Aross the Chest" Reply with quote

Hello everybody. I decide come back here and learn more. Now I notice many Kings had arms crossed on the chest and other some dont?

I am wonder if everybody know what mean or for reason?

I am pleasure to learn about this. Very Happy
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Kiya
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...that's a good question. I know the kings held the crook & flail - symbols of their authority in their crossed arms but I don't know why the arms are crossed. I'm sure someone here will be able to answer this question though. There are some VERY knowledgeable folks on here. Wink
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not have the answer, but as they wanted the king to be represented with crook & flail, this is IMO the best looking way.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Through-out its history, the positioning of the arms did change a bit. An example is Tut. His hands covered his groin. But the classic position is with the arms crossed, and as has been said, it usually occurred to hold the crook and flail.
Royal women's mummies arms were usually with one to the side and one crossed the chest, and would hold either a fly-whisk or flail.
Nobles of the court were usually buried with both arms by the sides.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
An example is Tut. His hands covered his groin.


Was he really mummified this way? I thought he was mummified with his arms crossed but that his arms were broken when they tried to remove the bracelets.
http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/gallery/p2002.html

The picture above is one of the photographs taken by Burton. It seems to show the arms crossed over the chest? It's hard to see exactly though ..

I vaguely remember something about the way the hands were positioned and that this changed during the 18th dynasty?

Several of the new kingdom royal mummies can be found here:
http://members.tripod.com/anubis4_2000/Bookmarks.htm
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats right, they were wondering if the bodies from ahmose- thutmose I were royal, as the arms wern't crossed over the chest. i think thutmose II is the earlest mummy we have with crossed arms? :wink:
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry! My bad!!
you're right, anneke. Tut's arms are most frequently seen in a horizontal cross-over, rather than the angular positioning usually seen. And you're right, also, in stating that the arms were positioned for the photograph, after they had been removed, so the original position is not really known now.
I said "covering groin" because I was thinking of a photo I had seen. I thought I remembered Tutankhamen, but obviously it was someone else. Now it's gonna bug me until I remember who it was!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may have been this one Osiris:
http://members.tripod.com/anubis4_2000/mummypages1/Aeighteen.htm#Tuthmosis%20I

It's the mummy thought for a time to be Tuthmosis I. Although I think that now they say this is not TI.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, they'e thought that for a while, he seems to be around 20, at death, whereas thutmose I had like a 50 year rule, so it can't be him.
don't they believe it to be ahmose sipairi now? amnd he's supposed to be the father of thutmose I? i did see an article that claims thutmose I and amenhotep I were full blood brothers.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read the theory as well that this may be Ahmose-Sipair.
This prince is mentioned in the lists of royals "worshipped" by the workers from Deir-el-Medina. He is among the royals depicted in the tomb of Khabeknet for instance.

This individual (the mummy previously thought to be T1) is apparently relatively young, has an arrow head in his chest, and if I remember correctly Dr Scott Woodward claimed that he was directly related to Amenhotep I (via the DNA evidence he was able to collect).

I guess if all this is true, then this could be the person linking Tuthmosis I to the house of Tao? If Tuthmosis I was the son of Ahmose Sipair and a lady Senseneb, and if Ahmose Sipair was a royal (son or brother of Amenhotep I), then Tuthmosis I would be a representative of a collateral branch of the royal family.

Would be neat if this were true. But seems rather speculative so far Very Happy
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neseret
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Mummy formerly known as Thutmose I Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
This individual (the mummy previously thought to be T1) is apparently relatively young, has an arrow head in his chest, and if I remember correctly Dr Scott Woodward claimed that he was directly related to Amenhotep I (via the DNA evidence he was able to collect).


In the August 2008 lecture given by Hawass at the O2 in London, Hawass proposed that Thutmose I's body was most likely the one found outside the tomb of Seti II. This younger body, with the arrow in the chest, has yet to be identified by the Cairo DNA testing. Woodward's claims have never been published for review, so its accuracy may be in doubt.

anneke wrote:
I guess if all this is true, then this could be the person linking Tuthmosis I to the house of Tao? If Tuthmosis I was the son of Ahmose Sipair and a lady Senseneb, and if Ahmose Sipair was a royal (son or brother of Amenhotep I), then Tuthmosis I would be a representative of a collateral branch of the royal family.

Would be neat if this were true. But seems rather speculative so far Very Happy


The idea that Thutmose I was a member of a collateral branch of the Thutmosid/Taosid line was first proposed by Robins in 1993 in

Robins, G. 1993. Women in Ancient Egypt. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.

So, it's not a new idea.
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I guess if all this is true, then this could be the person linking Tuthmosis I to the house of Tao? If Tuthmosis I was the son of Ahmose Sipair and a lady Senseneb, and if Ahmose Sipair was a royal (son or brother of Amenhotep I), then Tuthmosis I would be a representative of a collateral branch of the royal family.
gay Robins wrote Hatshepsut was thus no blood relation of Ahmose Nefertari, unless Thutmose belonged to a junior branch of the royal family. More interresting is Chris BENNETT 1994 GM 141 Thutmosis I and Ahmes-Sapair pp. 35-38
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Neo2Dust
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, simple question; What u do when someone jumps out of nowhere and scares the hell out of you..?? Right; You hold (protect) your heart with your hands, mostly crossed.
It's a connection with your heart (forget the bloodpumping heart, that's something different).
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Embrace_Egypt
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:03 pm    Post subject: Arms Crossed Reply with quote

"It was a symbol of royalty, the royals would cross their arms holding the anck and an object like a wand but with beads."
So according to this answer I found on the internet, if you were very royal then your arms would be crossed. Maybe someone could find an example, of a very royal pharoah and see if the pharoah has his arms crossed? Idea Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the trend began in the 18th dynasty as far as we know.
but most new kingdom monarchs crossed their hands over their chest holding the crook and flail.
most queens i believe had the left arm bent holding the lily sceptre.
heres an example- scroll down to sekhmet, neith and tefnut


http://www.ladyoftheflame.co.uk/Deities.htm
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