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Im looking for a new translation
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conorp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:28 am    Post subject: Im looking for a new translation Reply with quote

Hey guys,
I have always enjoyed this piece and i thought that i would finally get it translated.

Background info
Egypt, Mageb
Votive stela of Amenemope
New Kingdom, mid Dynasty XVIII
Reign of Thutmose III
1479-1425 BC
Limestone, pigment
36.5 X 24.5 X 8.0
Felton Bequest 1939

Pictures
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg96/conorp_egypt/Scanned/amenemope.gif
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg96/conorp_egypt/NGV/100_2531.jpg

http://conorp.10gbfreehost.com/votivestelaofamenemope.html

Also, do you think that the figure in the middle was left unpainted or was not finished?

Conorp
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Im looking for a new translation Reply with quote

conorp wrote:
Also, do you think that the figure in the middle was left unpainted or was not finished?

I don't think the lack of various types of paint is a symptom of an unfinished stela. Seeing how only red paint is used overall (eyes, male bodies, border), you can safely assume the previous steps (the rock-cutting and -refining, figure- and hieroglyph-sculpting) were all considered finished. Why only some areas are actually painted, could have a rather pragmatic reason, I think. Paint was expensive? In that sense it would be more economical to restrict the use to only one type of paint: the one that would/could recur most frequently. Just a guess, but a plausible one.
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Khuy-n-inpw
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cornorp and Segereh, pharaohwave

I do think this stele may have been executed rather quickly, which would explain why the central figure and part of the left Horus-eye are unpainted. I say this mainly because, to me, some of the hieroglyphs also look rather crudely, hurriedly done. Well, anyway, hereís a rather crude, hurried translation to go with it:

Vertical Register 1 (far right)
dw3 ra-Hrw-3xt(j) wb(n).f m anx bw n pt
worship of Re-Horakhty in his rising to life (in the) region of the sky

Vertical Register 2
jn jmn-m-ipw
by Amenemope

Vertical Register 3 (referring to the images)
hmt.f nb.t pr snwj st
his wife, mistress of the house, (and) his two brothers (at that) place

Upper Lunette
Eyes of Horus
Circuit of the Sun on the Waters
His Soul (commencement of horizontal register, placed centrally)

Horizontal Register
b3.f wab gb nb.t dj gb jmn mss
(for) his soul the mistress gives a pure offering that the Earth and Amun have brought forth

emhotep
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conorp
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Khuy-n-inpw for your attempt at translating.

The figures seem to be completed in a neat manor, it's just the text that seems to have been rushed.

Also, if anybody else would like to attempt to translate is feel free to go ahead.

Conorp
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with most of Khuy-n-inpw's translation, with the following alterations:

For the wife I would suggest the glyphs following nbt pr form her name. The glyphs seem to spell out something like snwy-st-ir. It's also possible that the st portion is simply an abbreviated form of Isis' name, so that portion of the name might be Aset. Arguing against this, I suppose, is that one would then expect the throne to be the first glyph, in the manner of transposition.

For the horizontal register I think what we have is this couple's son. The initial glyphs I would argue are sA=f, "his son." Following sA=f is the son's title: w'b mwt nbt... "the priest [pure one] of Mut, Mistress of..." I stop here because I'm a bit confused by the title given to Mut. One of her titles was "Mistress of Megeb, which was a site in the 10th Nome of Upper Egypt. I'm not 100% certain of this but I'm going to say the inscription reads:

...w'b mwt nbt migb... "...the priest of Mut, Mistress of Megeb..."

The rest of the horizontal inscription, spilling down behind the figure's head, is his name: Amunmose.

That's how I'd read it. Wink
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Aset
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with most of Khuy-n-inpw's and kmt-sesh's translations, with the following alteration: Very Happy
For the wife I also would suggest the glyphs following nbt pr form her name. Very Happy

I think the glyphs spell out:

sn=j Wsjr - Sen-i-Asir - 'Osiris-is-my-brother' Idea

This personal name is not recorded by Ranke.

Aset
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conorp
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is this the translation:

Vertical Register 1 (far right)
dw3 ra-Hrw-3xt(j) wb(n).f m anx bw n pt
worship of Re-Horakhty in his rising to life (in the) region of the sky

Vertical Register 2
jn jmn-m-ipw
by Amenemope

Vertical Register 3 (referring to the images)
hmt.f nb.t pr snwj st
Osiris-is-my-brother brother of the house, (and) his two sons (at that) place

Upper Lunette
Eyes of Horus
Circuit of the Sun on the Waters
His Soul (commencement of horizontal register, placed centrally)

Horizontal Register
b3.f wab gb nb.t dj gb jmn mss
(for) his soul the mistress gives a pure offering that the Earth and Amun have brought forth

I think thats what you all mean, it's a bit confusing.
Embarassed

Conorp
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Khuy-n-inpw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cornorp,

Iím not sure whether the figures have been executed in as neat a way as you think. Look at the wifeís nose and mouth, and how crudely the hands have been rendered.

Anyway, as the original translation attempt was mine, Iíll take responsibility for the corrected version. Here it is, incorporating kmt_seshís changes, on some of which I reserve judgement, and Asetís, which I think seem very convincing.

Vertical Register 1 (far right)
dw3 ra-Hrw-3xt(j) wb(n).f m anx bw n pt
worship of Re-Horakhty in his rising to life (in the) region of the sky

Vertical Register 2 (referring to 1st figure)
jn jmn-m-ipw
by Amenemope

Vertical Register 3 (referring to 2nd figure)
hmt.f nb.t pr sn.j wsir
his wife, mistress of the house, Sen-i-asir

Horizontal Register (referring to 3rd figure)
s3.f wab mwt nb.t migb jmn mss
his son, priest of Mut, Mistress of Megeb

Upper Lunette
Eyes of Horus
Circuit of the Sun on the Waters
His Son (commencement of horizontal register, placed centrally)

emhotep
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Khuy-n-inpw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit of above:

Khy-n-inpw wrote:
Horizontal Register (referring to 3rd figure)
s3.f wab mwt nb.t migb jmn mss
his son, priest of Mut, Mistress of Megeb

...should be:

Horizontal Register (referring to 3rd figure)
s3.f wab mwt nb.t migb jmn mss
his son, priest of Mut, Mistress of Megeb, Amenmose

Smile
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conorp
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch Khuy-n-inpw, now i understand it.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how I would translate it, which is close to Khuy-n-inpw's version:

1) Worshiping Re-Horakhty, his rising to life in the region (or place, b[w]) of the sky (or the heavens)

(LOL The end of that inscription trips me up a bit.)

2) Amenemope

3) His wife, lady of the house, Sen(t)-i-Asir.

(Thanks to Aset for the assist there. A very unusual name).

4) His son, priest of Mut, Mistress of Megeb, Amunmose.

My apologies for being too lazy at the moment to do the transliteration, but I think everyone involved in this discussion is more than capable of it. Khuy-n-inpw has done a nice job with that.

It's a very charming stela, conorp. I'm glad you shared it with us. It is with stelae and false doors that I got my own start translating hieroglyphs, and they're great fun. I often include them on my tours because they provide a nice glimpse into the lives of regular folks from ancient Egypt. They're often very educational.

And by the way, conorp, I was also curious as to why the wife wasn't painted. However, I like Segereh's explanation and it might indeed be the reason.

If we want to look at it economically, as Segereh argued, reds are one of the most common pigments seen on artifacts because they came from readily available minerals like ochres and oxides. Then again, so did yellows, and one would expect the wife to have been given a flesh tone of some hue of yellow, which was common throughout dynastic history for depictions of women (though not exclusively so, of course). Still, I think Segereh is on to something.

Now he's going to gloat and laugh at me because I agree with him. Razz Hey, I usually do!

But your original speculation may be correct, conorp. The stela may simply never have been finished. The figures are quite nicely carved but, as you pointed out in an earlier post, the glyphs are not as well rendered in the stone. It's possible this family was able to afford only the carving of the figures and had to turn to a "cheaper" artisan to do the inscriptions.

In the end we can't be sure, but it's fun to guess. Very Happy
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kennethhirst
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: sn Reply with quote

i have seen the form of sn has to do with the meaning [kissing the ground] so could it also read kissing the ground to my brother osiris,just Idea asking
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
3) His wife, lady of the house, Sen(t)-i-Asir.

(Thanks to Aset for the assist there. A very unusual name).


Aset kindly pointed out the "(t)" I had put in the wife's name in my previous post. I really have no idea why I put that in there but it doesn't belong. Disregard the "(t)," please.

LOL Great, now I'm inserting random letters. I was clearly thinking of the feminine-gender ending for some reason, but it doesn't even apply here.

Hey, as a Moderator I could've just edited it and erased the "(t)." I'll play fair and own up to my mistake. Very Happy
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Khuy-n-inpw
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kennethhirst wrote:
i have seen the form of sn has to do with the meaning [kissing the ground] so could it also read kissing the ground to my brother osiris

kennethhirst, you are right about sn meaning 'kiss', but I think your reading would require sn t3 wsir.

ĎBrotherí (also sn) could no longer be read into it, and after the t3, there would be a determinative sign, the nose-glyph D20.

emhotep
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, it could be saying something like "I kiss my Osiris." Laughing
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