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Amenhotep Son of Hapu
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:53 am    Post subject: Amenhotep Son of Hapu Reply with quote

I was gathering some info because I wanted to put together a page about Amenhotep son of Hapu.

I'm rather intrigued by some of his titles as well as the decriptions he gives of his duties.

I came across:
Quote:
The fragments in the Egypt Centre show 4 titles of Amenhotep: commander of the army; overseer of the double granaries; fan bearer on the right side; governor.

http://www.swan.ac.uk/egypt//infosheet/W1367.htm


I'm curious about his commander of the army title. On one of his seated scribe statues he mentions:
Quote:
... he put all the people subject to me, and the listing of their number under my control, as superior king's-scribe over recruits. I levied the (military) classes of my lord, my pen reckoned the numbers of millions; I put them in [classes (?)] in the place of their [elders (?)]; the staff of old age as his beloved son. I taxed the houses with the numbers belonging thereto, I divided the troops (of workmen) and their houses, I filled out the subjects with the best of the captivity, which his majesty had captured on the battlefield. I appointed all their troops (Tz.t), I levied -------. I placed troops at the heads of the way(s) to turn back the foreigners in their places.

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/amenhotep.htm

This makes him sound as a very high ranking administrator in the army, but not so much a battle field general.

I think the title "scribe of recruits" is the one that goes with these duties. I wonder if that is the same title as the earlier quoted text is referring to.
Maybe commander of the army is meant to convey the same duties as scribe of recruits? Or did he hold both offices?
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO Amenhotep III never made a war which need the presence of his highest ranking generals.

One of the reference about army titles is 1962 A.Schulman’s thesis MRTO. §158 (p.104) he wrote about Amenhotep, son of Hapi : As a “chief commander of the ‘elite troops’ his activities included raising up the various classes for the “elite troops….”.

Note : It is always dangerous to compare with modern time, but General D. Eisenhower had never been on the battle field at any time of his career.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ockinga, Boyo: Amemophis, son of Hapu, a Biographical Sketch, page 3
http://www.egyptology.mq.edu.au/newsletters/18_1986.PDF

As scribe of recruits (young men of military age eligible to be drafted into the the army or into the state's labor force), placed under his authority the entire manpouwer of the country. He was responsible for raising troops, filling vacancies (supplementing the native Egyptians with the king's prisoners of war), dividing them into companies, and stationing them at strategic points to guard the entrances to the Nile Valley and the Delta.
These troop maintained the king's transactions both inside and outside the country, rather than waging war.
It must be emphasized that the job of an overseer of recruits was not that of a field commander.It was a bureaucratic appointment.
Kozloff and Bryan
Amenhotep III and his world
page 46
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback Very Happy
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question is how nfrw must be understood. For D.Schulman elite troops is the best translation. In Bibliotheca Orientalis XXVI #1/2 (1969) J.Yoyotte and J.Lopez * come close to agree with the MRTO of Schulman.
IMO recruits is a conventional translation for nfrw. Few, if any, egyptologists have a military background.

On the Konosso inscription of Thutmes IV (BAR II,828) when the king was going southward on his boat the nfrw were following on the shore. What on earth recruits would be for in this circumstance. I must agree with Schulman they were more elite troops than recruits. For several reasons, one has to young to be in the elite troops, among them physically fit.


* I have the text in pdf, but do not remember how it reached my PC.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy I started asking the question because I was interested in the title of "commander of the army" mentioned on this site:
http://www.swan.ac.uk/egypt//infosheet/W1367.htm

That sounded a bit different to scribe of recruits.

And now I have come to realize (through all your contributions) that the question of what exactly a "scribe of recruits" was and if that's even the right translation is an equally interesting question.

I alwys wondered about the translation of "scribe of recruits". The explanation Rozette quotes is an interesting one, but it seems like that's not a position that would then lead to high positions at court.
If Amenhotep was involved with the training of the elite guards, then that aspect would make a bit more sense.

I don't know enough about the Egyptian administrative structure to make a real decision one way or the other, but it's intriguing.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forgot to mention, but this is what I've been able to find in rough outlines:
http://euler.slu.edu/~bart/egyptianhtml/kings%20and%20Queens/Amenhotep-Hapu.html
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kozloff and Bryan wrote:
As scribe of recruits .......... It must be emphasized that the job of an overseer of recruits was not that of a field commander.It was a bureaucratic appointment.
AFAIK Kozloff and Bryan have no experience with the army and just had to fill their book with whatever was available to them. What is described here is the job of a Chief of Staff of the Army which is not a bureaucratic appointment. BTW a field commander is under a Chief of Staff of the Army.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke,

Sarcophagus lid of Amenhotep son of Hapu in the Louvre Museum.
http://cartelen.louvre.fr/pub/fr/image/16937_e029166.001.jpg

http://cartelen.louvre.fr/cartelen/visite?srv=car_not_frame&idNotice=14405

Anneke wrote :
Quote:
I don't know enough about the Egyptian administrative structure to make a real decision one way or the other, but it's intriguing.


For information about the administrative structure during the reign of Amenhotep III, see "The Organization of Government under Amenhotep III by William J. Murnane
page 173-221 in :
"Amenhotep III, Perspectives on His Reign" O'Connor and Cline
Online version :
http://books.google.be/books?id=MzVszHxO3JoC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=scribe+of+recruits+amenhotep+son+of+hapu&source=web&ots=RNotpROkc6&sig=3pI0nAtw_wDq9fZbOLrvtccZzIU&hl=nl&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA196,M1
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks like the bottom of a sarcophagus/coffin? It's beautifully carved.

I will need to reread the O'Connor and Cline book again ....

Anneke
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rozette wrote:
For information about the administrative structure during the reign of Amenhotep III, see "The Organization of Government under Amenhotep III by William J. Murnane
For once I will sound positive. Wink I "love" Murnane one of the greatest egyptologist of his time. Thank you for pointing to this sub-chapter that I forgot.

It should be noted that in this particular inscription nfrw has no determinative........... well, may be because it is the end of the line.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke,

Here is some info about Amenhotep, son of Hapu that I found between my own notes about the officials of the reign of Amenhotep III.

The KMKG (Koninklijke Musea voor Kunst en Geschiedenis, Brussels) owns also a sarcophagus fragment of Amenhotep, son of Hapu. There are also sarcophagus fragments to be found in the Cairo museum and in Grenoble (France).
Source :
VARILLE, Alexandre, Inscriptions concernant l'architecte Amenhotep fils de Hapou, Le Caire, Imprimerie de l'Institut français d'Archéologie orientale, 1968 (20.6 x 27.8 cm; XIV + 164 p., 14 pl. [2 folding], frontispiece, 1 plan, 7 ill., 24 fig.) = Institut français d'Archéologie orientale. Bibliothèque d'étude, T. 44

Chapter IV deals with the coffins of Amenhotep, parts of which are at present in the Louvre Museum, Cairo, Brussels, Grenoble and University College, London. In chapter V Amenhotep's representation in the tomb of the vizier Ramose is discussed, the only instance where he is accompanied by a woman.

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/images/KMKG-MRAH/bre.3059.jpg

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=479&lan=E

In 2002 a Theban statue of Amenhotep Son of Hapu Discovered in Esna.
A newly discovered fragment of a statue of Amenhotep son of Hapu represented as a scribe. It was found in Esna but the inscription shows that it came from Karnak. The papyrus is inscribed with a short hymn to Amun-ra.
Source : Bulletin de l'Institut français d'archéologie orientale 102 (2002)

KRUCHTEN, Jean-Marie, Un fragment de statue d'Amenhotep fils de Hâpou, in: The Intellectual Heritage of Egypt. Studies Kákosy, 363-366. (fig., pl.).
Publication with translation and commentary of a fragmentary inscription of a statue of Amenhotep son of Hapu, now in a private collection at Brussels. The fragment does not belong to any known statue of him and probably was originally part of a statue group outside his still unknown tomb.


STADELMANN, Rainer, Die Herkunft der Memnon-Kolosse: Heliopolis oder Aswan?, MDAIK 40 (1984), 291-296 (fig.).

Concerning the problem of the provenance of the stone for the Memnon Colossi, the author stresses the importance of the inscriptions on the dorsal pillars, especially that of the southern one. These can only be interpreted as referring to the quarries of the Gebel Ahmar near Cairo, a conclusion supported by inscriptions of Amenhotep son of Hapu, stating unequivocally that the stone came from that locality. From the fact that Amenhotep speaks of only one statue, the author concludes that after the latter's death the sculptor Men was commissioned to create a second one. The preference for this particular kind of stone is connected with the theological importance of Heliopolis.

Rozette Wink
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Harsiese
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello!

I have a question for all of you Idea

You are speaking about the Amenhotep's coffin/sarcophagus, but... how about the tomb? Do you know if the Amenhotep's tomb has been found? where?

thank you very much

Harsiese
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they may know the general area (Qurnet el Murnai) but for as far as I know they do not know the tomb location, or maybe it's one of those tombs that was found and then lost again?

Considering the fact that they have the sarcophagus etc you would expect that this may have come from the tomb? Unless it was robbed in antiquity and then used at another location?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Amenhotep son of Hapu Reply with quote

I am after any information on Amenhotep son of Hapu,or any useful websights.I recently brought a book on this,only to be dissapointed in the book being a fictional story.Any help appreciated.Thanks
David
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