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Queen Karimala
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:18 am    Post subject: Queen Karimala Reply with quote

A Queen Karimala is mentioned on the facade of a temple at Semna.

The Queen, followed by a much smaller figure (looks like maybe a daughter?) stand before Isis. The Queen is dressed in a full garment with loose sleeves. She wears a broad collar around her neck and carries a flail. She wears a vulture cap, topped with the typical disk and double plumes.

The inscription above the Queen calls her "King of Upper and Lower Egypt, King's Great Wife, King's Daughter".
It maybe a mistake meant to read "Wife of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt", but that's not what it says!

The text is dated to year 14 of an unnamed King and keeps referring to an unexplained but very serious "matter".
The worship of Amun had been abandoned. Opposition to the sovereign had been lead by someone named Makaresh, although they retained control (possibly with difficulty).

A particular incident ("the matter") caused the sovereign to bow before Amun and reinstate his cult.

The inscriptions are hard to read and people can't seem to agree on much of anything.
The name of the Queen has been read as Karimala, Karoma(t), and even Karomama.

The language points to the Libyan period.
She could also be the wife of a Nubian King from that same period.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mention of the abandonment of Amun first reminded me of the Amarna period, but this inscription seems to be from a later period.
Still wonder which god was supposed to take over from Amun?

Anyone heard of this Queen (possibly ruling in her own right)?

The story comes from Morkot's book by the way (pg 151-153)
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this quote which implies that Karimala was the ruler for at least 14 years
Quote:
CAMINOS, †, Ricardo A., Notes on Queen Katimala's Inscribed Panel in the Temple of Semna, in: Hommages Leclant. 2, 73-80. (fig.).

Discussion of the Egyptian scene and text engraved by order of Queen Katimala on a wall of the N.K. sanctuary which from the early 15th century B.C. until 1964 A.D. stood in the ancient Egyptian fortress of Semna West. The correct reading of the queen's name is still uncertain: either Katimala or Karimala. Especially on the basis of iconographic evidence, the author argues that the Katimala panel belongs to the Napatan period of Kush and was in any way iconographically influenced by the Abu Simbel reliefs. Thanks to this unique record which by a happy accident of preservation has survived to this day, we can catch a glimpse of this queen who ruled at least fourteen years during a turbulent reign. M.W.K.


from:http://www.leidenuniv.nl/nino/aeb94/aeb94_10.html
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Aktisanes
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:04 pm    Post subject: Kadimala Reply with quote

Hi Anneke

about kadimala, according to Törok, the A sign combined with the U2 sign and the E23 sign (lion) is prenounced malo.
So is the q sign at the end of a name not prenounced Qa but Qo.
So it is Shabaqo Aramatelqo ....


In the Semna temple of the fort she is named Kings great wife but also king's daughter, so her father was also a king.

Jean
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Psusennes III
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Queen Karimala Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
The name of the Queen has been read as Karimala, Karoma(t), and even Karomama.


During the 22nd dynasty there were 2 queens called Karomama

Karomama I: wife of king Osorkon II (Meryamen Usermaatre Setepenamen)

Karomama II: wife of Takelot II (Meryamen Hedjkheperre Setepenre) and daughter of his half-brother Nimlot (Theban High Priest)

The Karomama II was in a matter of speaking a kings daughter, because Nimlot held power over Thebes and Herakleopolis, and became kings wife by marrying her uncle. She formed the bond between north and south.
She was also Divine wife of Amun.

Both Karomamas lived during the 22nd dynasty which was Lybian.
Karomoma II might be possible as Takelot II reigned for 25 years, The same however for Karomama I because Osorkon II reigned for 24 years but, because by the death of Nimlot in year 11 of Takelot's reign, a vacuum of power was created because of a struggle for the power in Thebes between a Harsiese a "so-called" descendant of king Harsiese and Osorkon, son of Nimlot. Meanwhile Ptahwedjankhef also son of Nimlot stayed in power in Herakleopolis supported his brother during this struggle. Osorkon became thé man in Thebes but never came to the throne of Takelot II, because another brother Sheshonq III took the throne after the king's (Takelot III their uncle) death. So it might have been possible that during these turbulent years between year 11 and year 25 there was a divine wife of Amun who had most of the power in the other part of Egypt.

Sorry for the speculation Rolling Eyes
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So her name may be Kadimalo? (That sounds more Nubian to me.)

Still seems to be a bit of a mystery as to who she is exactly.

About Karomama: Isn't her name related to Maatkare, or am I just completely misremembering things?

If Kadimalo would be indentified with one of the Karomamas (I know blatant speculation Smile ), then her representation as a Queen with what seems like her own temple is rather intriguing. I thought that some of the Libyan pharaohs tried to mimic the names from the 18/19th dynasties. Some of those queens were also known to have had their own temples. Maybe a nod to historical times. (I know, shameless theorizing with no facts to back it up Twisted Evil )
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:55 pm    Post subject: Kadimalo Reply with quote

The temple in the fort at Semna was build in the reign of sesostris III, so it seems a little out of date to have a lybyan connection don't you think?

Jean
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point Smile

I'm not too good with the relative timeframes of the later periods.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The temple in the fort of Semna was indeed built in the reign of Sesostris III but additions and changes took place under the reigns of Thutmoses I and III, Hatshepsut and Taharqa. The temple was dedicated to the Nubian god Dedwen and is now located in Khartum (Sudan).
A Nubian queen then I suppose.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK now I'm totally confused.... So I straightened myself out...

That temple may date back to Sesostris III (12th dynasty?), but the Karomalo inscription most definitely does not!

Coming back to what I said before: I don't think I was wrong to put it (possibly) in the Lybian period.
The text was said to point to Lybian origins.
Some of the experts have suggested a Napatan/Nubian influence.

Those facts make it possible that the Queen was either Lybian or Nubian.
That seems to be the entire confusion.

If the additions date to the time of Taharqa (as Charly suggests) then the Queen may come from that time period. I don't know any Nubian Queens from the early 25th dynasty (or the time just preceding it) that sound very similar to Karomalo.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


is this the image you're talking about?

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/EGYPT/BEES/IMAGES/BEES_SEMNA_WEST.html more of these images can be found at this link

regards
Tom
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's the one!

Does the label really imply that at some point this was dated to the time of Thutmosis III?

I guess part of the chapel dates to the time of TIII, but like I said this inscription should be much later.
This is the Queen (with her daughter?) before the goddess Isis.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it does, as it comes from the Oriental Institute in Chicago, I see no reason to doubt that, so there goes my Karomama II theory
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda makes me wonder if the Queen is Maatkare (Hatshepsut), and the "unexplained but very serious matter" the King keeps referring to is the usurpation of the throne by Maatkare....

from my first post:

Quote:
The text is dated to year 14 of an unnamed King and keeps referring to an unexplained but very serious "matter".
The worship of Amun had been abandoned. Opposition to the sovereign had been lead by someone named Makaresh, although they retained control (possibly with difficulty).

A particular incident ("the matter") caused the sovereign to bow before Amun and reinstate his cult.


Although Hatshepsut never abandoned the cult of Amun.

This is getting stranger everytime I learn more about it Confused
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or... hold on..... Idea
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