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pentewere = screaming mummy?

 
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:08 am    Post subject: pentewere = screaming mummy? Reply with quote

me again!! here's an article about the possiblilty of the "screaming man" or unknown man "e", being the son of ramses III, who tried to kill him.
hawass says he will do dna testing against ramses III to see if the theory pans out.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/screaming-mummy-could-be-murderous-son-of-pharaoh-ramses-iii-re-issue_100122525.html
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been quite a few proposed identities for this anonymous mummy.

1. Prince Zannanza, the prince sent by the Hittites to marry a Queen of Egypt. His death resulted in war between the Egyptians and the Hittites according to the Hittite archives.

2. Prince Pentawere the prince involved in the attempted assassination of Ramesses III. Pentawere was forced to commit suicide I think.

3. An otherwise unknown governor of one of the territories in the near east who could have died there an had been buried according to a mixture of near eastern (accounting for the sheep skin) and egyptian beliefs.

4. None of the above Very Happy I.e some other person we have never heard of.

It would be interesting if they could tie the mummy to the Rammeside family.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawass seems to have accepted the identity of the mummy as that of the Egyptian prince.
Although this is quite long, it is very interesting. Particularly interesting, to me, is the statement that the mummy had been eviscerated, which seems to indicate that the body was that of an Egyptian.

It was a blood-curdling discovery. The mummy of a young man with his hands and feed bound, his face contorted in an eternal scream of pain. But who was he and how did he die?

On a scorching hot day at the end of June 1886, Gaston Maspero, head of the Egyptian Antiquities Service, was unwrapping the mummies of the 40 kings and queens found a few years earlier in an astonishing hidden cache near the Valley of the Kings.

The 1881 discovery of the tombs, in the Deir El Bahri valley, 300 miles south of Cairo, had been astonishing and plentiful. Hidden from the world for centuries were some of the great Egyptian pharaohs - Rameses the Great, Seti I and Tuthmosis III. Yet this body, buried alongside them, was different, entombed inside a plain, undecorated coffin that offered no clues to the deceased's identity.

It was an unexpected puzzle and, once the coffin was opened, Maspero found himself even more shocked.
There, wrapped in a sheep or goatskin - a ritually unclean object for ancient Egyptians - lay the body of a young man, his face locked in an eternal blood-curdling scream. It was a spine-tingling sight, and one that posed even more troubling questions: here was a mummy, carefully preserved, yet caught in the moment of death in apparently excrutiating pain.

He had been buried in exalted company, yet been left without an inscription, ensuring he would be consigned to eternal damnation, as the ancient Egyptians believed identity was the key to entering the afterlife. Moreover, his hands and feet had been so tightly bound that marks still remained on the bones.

Who could he be, this screaming man, assigned the anonymous label 'Man E' in the absence of a proper name?

An autopsy, performed by physicians in 1886 in the presence of Maspero, did little to shed any light on the subject.

One of the physicians, Daniel Fouquet, believed the contracted shape of his stomach cavity showed he had been poisoned, writing in his report that 'the last convulsions of horrid agony can, after thousands of years, still be seen' - yet his science was unable to help him ascertain why.

Even marrying these findings with historical documents only allowed experts to speculate. Some believed 'Man E' was the traitor son of Rameses III, who'd been involved in a coup to remove him from the throne, others that he was an Egyptian governor who had died abroad and been returned to his homeland for burial. Some believed the unconventional manner of his mummification showed that he was not Egyptian at all, but a member of a rival Hittite dynasty, who had died on Egyptian soil.

All explanations were possible, yet Man E's true identity seemed destined to remain a mystery.
As Dr Zahi Hawass, Secretary General of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, puts it, 'We'd never seen a mummy like this, suffering. It's not normal, and it tells us something happened, but we did not know exactly what.'

Until now. Today, nearly 130 years after his body was first uncovered, a team of scientists has brought the wonders of modern forensic techniques to bear on the enigma.

Using sophisticated-technology, including CT scanning, Xraysand facial reconstruction, to examine the mummy, they uncovered tantalising new clues that could reveal his identity, all under the watchful eye of Five's TV crew, who are making a series of documentaries hoping to unravel some of Egypt's great secrets.

Their findings suggest that Man E is indeed Prince Pentewere, elder son of Rameses III, who, with his mother, Tiy, had evolved a plan to assassinate the pharaoh and ascend to the throne.

Certainly, the theory has a number of supporters. Among them is Dr Susan Redford, an Egyptologist from Pennsylvania State University, who points out that an ancient papyrus scroll details a plot by Tiy to dethrone Rameses III in favour of their son, even though he was not the nominated heir.

The plot was apparently supported by a number of high level courtiers, suggesting that they felt Pentewere had a legitimate claim, even though the accession was usually thought to be divinely ordained.
The scroll tells us that the coup was very quickly discovered and the plotters brought to trial,' she explained. 'They were sentenced to death, but the papyrus also tells us that Pentewere was spared this fate. Perhaps because of his royal status he was allowed to commit suicide.'

He would almost certainly have done so, she says, by drinking poison.

Yet other findings from the 1886 postmortem seemed to dispute the body might be that of Pentewere. It suggested that Man E had been buried with his internal organs intact, which was extraordinarily unusual, even for a traitor, and a boost to theories that the body had been mummified elsewhere at the time - or had not even been Egyptian at all.

Some academics believed that the body may have been that of a rival Hittite prince, basing their theory on a letter written by Tutankhamun's widow Ankhesenamun.

The pharaoh died without leaving an heir and, in her letter, his wife had appealed to the then King of the Hittites that he allow her to marry one of his sons, who would become king and ensure her own continuing power.

Man E, some academics believed, was just such a prince, one who had travelled to Egypt to meet with his new bride and befallen a cruel and murderous fate.

Yet today's forensic findings seemed to dispute this theory: a modern 3D scan showed the mummy had been completely eviscerated, as was customary for important Egyptians.
Moreover, new analysis of the condition of his joints and teeth also appeared to overturn earlier theories as to the mummy's age at the time of death: Fouquet had believed him to be in his early 20s, too young for Pentewere. Now, it seemed, he could have been anywhere up to the age of 40, consistent again with Rameses' son.

Equally revealing was a full facial reconstruction. Using modern forensic techniques, a 3D image of Man E's skull was created, revealing what would have been a strong and handsome face, with a prominent nose and long jaw - features which do not correlate with a Hittite background.

Egyptians had a long lower face and an extended cranium from the forehead to the back of the head, as did Man E, suggesting he's a ancient Egyptian.

There are, of course, still anomalies - the sheepskin covering, the unorthodox way the body was preserved without a name.

The passing of the centuries has ensured that some of the Screaming Man's secrets are destined to remain unsolved, and as Dylan Bickerstaffe, an eminent Egyptologist, puts it, 'With some questions we found the answers to be more ordinary than we thought,' he says. 'But we've also answered others and found the answers to be much stranger.'

It is certainly enough to convince Dr Hawass, who now believes that this most enduring of Egyptian mysteries has been solved.

'It seems to me this man has been sitting in the Cairo Museum waiting for someone to identify him,' he says. 'Now I really do believe that this unknown man is not unknown any more.'
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the reconstruction here: http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/UnknownManE/ManE.htm

looks more consistant with turkish features to me. im not saying its zannaza, but he does look he could have been hittite.

i dont agree with pentewere, as hawass does, though.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest stumbling block in accepting the screaming man as the Hittite prince is the evisceration. Such a procedure would not at all be acceptable in any other burial except that of an Egyptian.
Removing the softer tissue virtually destroys the concept we have had all these years that the man was buried alive.
After considering all the facts, I must go with Hawass and accept the burial as that of the Egyptian prince.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not so sure. i mean, yes he was eviscerated, buti havn't seen any mention of linen wrappings. just the sheep skin which supposedly shrunk over the body.

it does suggest a criminal, but it could be anybody. a member of the nobility or a priest. not all the mummy's in the caches seem to be royal.

i guess the dna is the only way to truly know.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
im not so sure. i mean, yes he was eviscerated, buti havn't seen any mention of linen wrappings. just the sheep skin which supposedly shrunk over the body.


Actually that's incorrect. According to the French report by Maspero, the body was found enveloped in the following order, translated from the French:
A skin of sheep enveloped him, then a thick maze of bandelettes [wrappings], then a whitish natron layer, loaded of human grease, sleek to the touch, fetid, slightly caustic; [there was also] a second vest [of wrappings], a second bed of natron, and the cadaver. (Maspero 1889: 548)

This does suggest the body was carefully mummified, and not just wrapped in a sheepskin, There was no indication the skin had shrunk over the body. As I recall, the skin was rather loosely wrapped around the remains and possibly even tied together over the body.

kylejustin wrote:
it does suggest a criminal, but it could be anybody. a member of the nobility or a priest. not all the mummy's in the caches seem to be royal.

i guess the dna is the only way to truly know.


It suggests that whoever was trying to ready the body for burial was given instructions to not allow whoever the deceased was the full benefit of a normal Egyptian mummification and burial. Unknown Man E's treatment has been called the "anti-mummy" for everything done to the body was mean to destroy it - physically and religiously. The body was covered in lye, which is the caustic substance mentioned above. Basically lye will turn a body to soap, which means it breaks down tissue and bone to mix with the body fat. The group who performed the unwrapping in 1886 noted (with some alarm, according to their report) that the body began to fall apart almost immediately when it was exposed to air, due to the lye.

While buried in a fine coffin, all religious texts had been hacked out and no name was found within to identify the mummy, thus condemning the deceased to all the horrors of the afterlife as an unnamed corpse, unknown to the living, who, by speaking his name if know, would keep Unknown Man E's /kA/ and /Ax/ alive. So, Unknown Man E was condemend to death twice - in this life and in the afterlife.

This type of treatment has caused the speculation that it was a member of the royal family, but one who, while royal and due a fine burial, had done something so heinous to result in this sort of burial. In known historical records, this leads one back to Pentawer, son of Ramses III, who was considered part of the "harem conspiracy" against Ramses III.

But the nature of the Unknown Man E remains can never sufficiently lead one to identify him, as we have no sufficient means of extracting DNA from many of the royal mummies, including the one presently identified as Ramses III, due to DNA degradation over time, destruction by the embalming process itself, and multiple handling by persons over the past 100+ years.

In short, DNA is not an answer to everything.

Reference:

Maspero, G. 1889. Les momies royales de Déir el-Baharî. In Mémoires/ publ. par les membres de la Mission Archéologique Française au Caire 1/4: 511-787.

Smith, G. E. 2000 (1912). Catalogue Général de Antiquités Égyptiennes du Musée du Caire. No. 60151-61100. The Royal Mummies. Service des Antiquités de L'Égypte: Catalogue Général de Antiquités Égyptiennes du Musée du Caire. London: Duckworth.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I recalled reading somewhere, when the corpse was more closely examined, all of those present commented on the very strong odor that came from the body. Evidently, the action of the lye created a very strong smell. Do you thin the lye was also responsible for the greasy, soap-like condition?
I though sprinkling lye on a body completely destroyed the corpse.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought, and maybe it's just the way I am looking at the photographs, but do I detect pierced-ears on the body?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:

I though sprinkling lye on a body completely destroyed the corpse.


that's quick lime i believe.

thank you for clarifying neseret. it is interesting he was mummified properly.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was an interesting program on tv about this last week, reporting to provide new evidence. It basically said most everything mentioned in this thread... although the internal organs had apparantly been definitely removed and the suggestion for the position of the mouth was that the body had been left unattended at death and that rigor mortis had set in with no attempt to remidy the appearance (as might be "normal"). The same conjectures about identification were made with the consensus falling on Pentawere

However, a thought and a question- a thought that I would be happy to reject if logical reason exists

neseret wrote:
While buried in a fine coffin, all religious texts had been hacked out and no name was found within to identify the mummy, thus condemning the deceased to all the horrors of the afterlife as an unnamed corpse, unknown to the living, who, by speaking his name if know, would keep Unknown Man E's /kA/ and /Ax/ alive. So, Unknown Man E was condemend to death twice - in this life and in the afterlife.

This type of treatment has caused the speculation that it was a member of the royal family, but one who, while royal and due a fine burial, had done something so heinous to result in this sort of burial. In known historical records, this leads one back to Pentawer, son of Ramses III, who was considered part of the "harem conspiracy" against Ramses III.


Could this same circumstantial evidence not also be interpreted as pointing to the identity as possibly being Akhenaten? - is there reason why this mummy could not be his?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One reason for not identifying this person as Akhenaten would be his age at death.
It seems the man was in his early twenties (23-24?) when he died. And unless we assume Akhenaten was 6 or 7 when he came to the throne and almost immediately started producing children with Nefertiti, then that age just does not work.

See http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/UnknownManE/ManE.htm for more detail.

It is interesting that some of the finds point to 18th dynasty (bandages, simple headdress on coffin) and others to 19th dynasty (crossed arms on coffin)

But who knows what was original to the original burial (re coffin) and what was allocated to the mummy at the time of reburial?

The facial reconstruction makes him look more Ramesside.

Very Happy Probably the best label is still "Unknown Man". The rest is guess work. Fun, but a guess nevertheless.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NatGeo folks seem to have his age pinned anywhere 25-40, they do this in their attempt to ID him as Pentawere of course- but this could also take Akhenaten into the realms of possibility perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrhOwaW7CZw

anneke wrote:
It is interesting that some of the finds point to 18th dynasty (bandages, simple headdress on coffin) and others to 19th dynasty (crossed arms on coffin)


I did not know about the crossed arms, are there no examples of crossed arms earlier than D19/20th? - KV55 had crossed arms, no?

What about the gold earrings? - I was slightly dissapointed this has not been pursued as a line of inquiry - styles, and comparing to known representations of individuals, etc.

It sounds like, other than the circumstantial evidence of there being an effort to damn the individual, there is little to ID him as Pentawere or anyone else, as you say... conjecture can be fun - without the proofs I would ask, who else from the period(s) merits damning at the same time as a "quality burial"?

BTW I am not too sure how much stock I would hold in the facial forensic efforts, heck you could make him look like Micky Mouse and who would argue? - I did find it interesting that one obvious available feature available was left out of the reconstruction- the hair, surely that should have been included
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read about this mummy at the Archaeology magazine and there they said it was not likely he would be the Hittite prince. If he was murdered, then surely his body would have been thrown away, and not given Egyptian burial. The magazine came to the conclusion it would be the mummy of Pentawere.

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