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What happened to Meritaten?
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
From Biblical Arheology "Egyptian Queen Proposes" article"


Professor van de Hout, who translated this letter in 1993, renders it like this.

"... ... gypt wrote again and again... was ... But if you ... ... .... you could have sent my son back home. ... Your .....nt Hani held us responsible ... What ... ... with my son?!"


I took out the bracketed stuff and anything with a ? after it.

Certainly leaves any interpretation open! Idea


I admit that stripped of all the brackets the fragments do look somewhat denuded, but some of the longer fragments are still quite telling.

The "..gypt wrote again and again" clearly refers to the preceeding correspondence with the queen, "..you could have sent my son back home" shows that the situation in Egypt wasn`t exactly what the Hittite king had imagined and that he just wanted to have his son back and forget all about it.

"What...with my son?" probably leaves no other option than the one which was added in brackets.

We can try to fill the gaps ourselves with various phrases, but we must not forget that the translation was done by an expert whose attempts at filling in the gaps are at least educated guesses.
When filling in gaps many things are taken into account, for example what would have made sense and what would have fit nicely into the available space.
The gap in the phrase "What....with my son?" probably is a short one leaving only space for something like "happenedt to" or "have you done with".

The grammar of the available parts might also give clues to the missing contents. In egyptian for example the ending of a verb shows if it is a male or a female who is acting, see "ankhef" for a man and "ankhes" for a woman.

IF the same is applicable to Hittite (and I don`t know a single word Hittite), then the person who "wrote again and again" could at least be identified as a male or a female, most likely the queen.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can hardly believe my eyes, no new posts during the last 24 hours, neither here nor in the "Pharaohs and Queens" section?!?

Does that mean we are back to the old pre-orwellic times and the more recent times when you could not turn your back on the computer for fear of missing out on countless posts are confined to the past?

Hopefully not. I quite liked it lively as it had become and probably everyone is just too busy to write posts, has run out of steam or is sleeping (spring has a very calming effect on some).

Friend Orwell might well be doing extra shifts to fund his excessive book purchases..... Right?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL Work is severely interfering with my hobbies!
I'll get back when I can.
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herper
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke, lets get those priorities straight! hobbies first!!!
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, I'm back at work. But the fire still burns, Sothis and Anneke!

I've discovered that finding out what 'facts' actually exist and weighing them and thinking on what they might mean is more fun and challenging than pursuing my other hobby here - trying to form wild theories!

Caveat: I fully hope to form wild theories at some stage. Wink
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
Anneke, lets get those priorities straight! hobbies first!!!


Perfectly so, herper! Laughing
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
Anneke, lets get those priorities straight! hobbies first!!!


LOL Wish I could ....
Laughing
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Neferneferuaten Nefertiti
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
From Biblical Arheology "Egyptian Queen Proposes" article"


Professor van de Hout, who translated this letter in 1993, renders it like this.

"... ... gypt wrote again and again... was ... But if you ... ... .... you could have sent my son back home. ... Your .....nt Hani held us responsible ... What ... ... with my son?!"


OK, I am a lurker, be that as it may, I really do not believe that the Hittie document contained the partial work {E}gypt. Kmt was NOT called Egypt until after that upstart Macedonian showed up and parceled out his spoils of war. So, this is probably why, Orwell, that most of us want to see the original document because the translators use all the wrong names! Many mistakes have been made because of assumptions by translators. Case in point. The Maruaten being usurped by Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten, many just ASSUMED that the Maruaten was Nefertiti's and she fell from favor.... sigh. So, please, please, please use the real names.... Thank you, I will sit in the corner and let all the grown ups speak.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferneferuaten Nefertiti wrote:
Orwell wrote:
From Biblical Arheology "Egyptian Queen Proposes" article"


Professor van de Hout, who translated this letter in 1993, renders it like this.

"... ... gypt wrote again and again... was ... But if you ... ... .... you could have sent my son back home. ... Your .....nt Hani held us responsible ... What ... ... with my son?!"


OK, I am a lurker, be that as it may, I really do not believe that the Hittie document contained the partial work {E}gypt. Kmt was NOT called Egypt until after that upstart Macedonian showed up and parceled out his spoils of war. So, this is probably why, Orwell, that most of us want to see the original document because the translators use all the wrong names! Many mistakes have been made because of assumptions by translators. Case in point. The Maruaten being usurped by Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten, many just ASSUMED that the Maruaten was Nefertiti's and she fell from favor.... sigh. So, please, please, please use the real names.... Thank you, I will sit in the corner and let all the grown ups speak.


To a large extent we have to put our trust in translators. As I recall this letter was in Hittite cuneiform, and while a number of us have training in Egyptian hieroglyphs, I rather doubt any of us at Egyptian Dreams are conversant in Hittite cuneiform.

Are you certain the original document even says kmt? Might it say tAwy or tA-mry or other names by which ancient Egypt went? For that matter, might it say the name by which the Hittites referred to Egypt? Given this, it is more the norm to use the modern name with which most people are familiar: Egypt. Even if the name in the original document is fragmented, there must be enough of it extant for the translator to know the whole of it.

It's my own experience in reading professional literature which includes transliterations of original inscriptions, that the modern place names are usually employed in translation.

LOL That "upstart" Macedonian led an unstoppable juggernaut that swept through all opposition brought before it. Remember that at this time Egypt was just a satrapy of Persia, and the Persians had easily taken Egypt under Cambyses. But when Alexander marched into Egypt in 332 BCE, the Persian garrison more or less marched out from Memphis and surrendered without a fight. Persia was the largest empire the world had yet seen, and obviously they did not consider Alexander an upstart. Perhaps at first they did, but Darius III learned the hard way that his massive army was no match for Macedon.

But I'm bias. Alexander is one of my favorite historical figures.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm not mistaken, Egypt in 18th Dynasty international exchange letters and Hittite annals is called (Land of) Misri, almost like in Modern Arabic (Misr).
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Vangu Vegro
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferneferuaten Nefertiti wrote:
Kmt was NOT called Egypt until after that upstart Macedonian showed up and parceled out his spoils of war.


A little correction/addition here: Linear B tablets from Pylos mention the word "Ai-Ku-Pi-Ti-Jo" ("Aiguptios" translated as "the Egyptian"), so the Greek name for the country's been in use since the 13th century BC at the very least.

Of course, AFAIK you're right that it wasn't in use in Egypt itself until after Alexander (please correct me f I'm wrong).

Also:

Quote:
Ugaritic inscriptions refer to Egypt as Msrm, in the Amarna tablets it is called Misri, and Assyrian and Babylonian records called Egypt Musur and Musri.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizraim
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Egypt in 18th Dynasty international exchange letters and Hittite annals is called (Land of) Misri, almost like in Modern Arabic (Misr).


I did not know that. Thanks for the info, Robson. Wink
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jantavanta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:02 am    Post subject: The Political Exile of Meritaten Reply with quote

Research work done by Lorraine Evans; published in 2001 in http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Ark-Startling-Descended-Pharaohs/dp/0671029568 Kingdom of the Ark : The Startling Story of How the Ancient British Race is Descended from the Pharaohs describes the self-exile of Meritaten to Ireland as a result of the the restoration of Amen which had been briefly suppressed by Aten.

This explains why the remains of Meritaten cannot be found in Egypt.
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Neferneferuaten Nefertiti
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Misri-Kheta Reply with quote

I did know that Egypt/Kmt was called Misri by the Hatti and the Hatti were called Kheta.
As to Alexander, we all have our favorite figures. He truly was a amazing man and he accomplished a lot. And yes, the Persian had Kmt and gave it up.
But that was not my point.
Even if the document was in Hurrian it STILL did not say Egypt. Come on give me that.
Thank you
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My pet theory - and yes I know there are problems with it - is that Meritaten was Akhkheperure Neferneferuaten. When her young husband died she tried to establish herself as Pharaoh in her own right claiming a better right than Smen's son by another woman. She was the 'Egyptian Queen' of the Hittite letters, a last desperate effort to hang onto power. After her failure she would have been banished to a harem palace - or disposed of in a more final fashion.
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