Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

What happened to Meritaten?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
My pet theory - and yes I know there are problems with it - is that Meritaten was Akhkheperure Neferneferuaten. When her young husband died she tried to establish herself as Pharaoh in her own right claiming a better right than Smen's son by another woman. She was the 'Egyptian Queen' of the Hittite letters, a last desperate effort to hang onto power. After her failure she would have been banished to a harem palace - or disposed of in a more final fashion.


I see numerous problems with this theory:

"King Neferneferuaten's" reign is asumed to have preceded that of Smenkhkare's, by all accounts (Allen 1994; Griffis-Greenberg 2001), so the timing is wrong. Further, I would think that any GRW, no matter who she is, would have to know that all sons of the husband are fair game for becoming king: if she personally had no sons fromtheir marriage, what right would she actually have to place herself ahead of one of the previous king's potential heirs? None, as far as I can see, based upon ancient Egyptian kingship traditions.

Further, as Goetze (ANET: 319), Murnane (1990), Giles (1997 and 2001), Edel (1978), and Güterbrock (1956) have shown, when the Hittites referred to the "Egyptian Queen" affair, they note that she is the widow of "Bib-hu-ruiru-riya," (sometimes rendered as "Nibhururiya" as well) which, in reference to other correspondence from the same Hittite archive, is a reference to Tutankhamun - not Akhenaten or Smenkhkare, or even "King Neferneferuaten."

Of course, you are not the first to propose that "Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten" was Meritaten. Both Krauss (1978) and Gabolde (1998) have proposed the same, but both tend to gloss over much of the Hittite evidence, particularly that the dead king referred to was actually named in the Hittite archive.

Further, while your theory that "King Neferneferuaten" may have thought she had more "right" to the throne, the final decision, in the long run, was not hers to make. Since we know now that Tutankhamun was the son of a royal daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, and KV 55, who was also a son of the same parents, Tutankhamun's "right" to sit on the throne appears to have been beyond dispute. His mother was not a "nobody", according to the DNA results - she was a royal daughter. Her lineage and that of her husband appear to have been beyond reproach.

One has to also consider the Hittites - who were not on the friendliest of terms with the Egyptians at the time (they were at war during the "Egyptian Queen" correspondence) - would not have merely taken the "Egyptian Queen" letter at face value. In fact, they say as much (from the Deeds of Suppiluliumas, according to his son, Mursili II, with Goetze's translation):
-----------------------------
(Events surrounding the first letter)

And since, in addition, their lord, Nibhururiya had died, therefore the queen of Egypt, who was Dahamunzu, sent a messenger to my father
and wrote to him thus: My husband died. A son I have not. But to thee, they say, the sons are many. If thou wouldst give me one son of thine, he would become my husband. Never shall I pick out a servant of mine and make him my husband!...I an afraid..."
[hr]

When my father heard this, he called for the Great Ones for council saying: "Such a thing has never happened to me in my whole life!" So it happened that my father sent forth to Egypt Hattusa-ziti, the chamberlain with this order: "Go and bring thou the true word back to me! Maybe they deceive me! Maybe in fact they do have a son of their lord! Bring thou the true word back to me!"

=========
So, the Hittites were skeptical: they sent their chamberlain Hattusa-ziti, to ascertain if the facts were as she described in her letter (that the lord had died, there was no son in the wings, and so on).

Now to the second letter, which is supported in full by the Egyptian ambassador to the Hittites, named Hani:
--------------------
(Events concerning the second Egyptian Queen letter)

But when it became spring, Hattusa-ziti [came back] from Egypt and the messenger of Egypt, Lord Hani, came with him. Now, since my father had, when he sent Hattusa-ziti to Egypt, given him orders as follows: "Maybe they have a son of their lord! Maybe they deceive me and do not want my son for the kingship!"

Therefore the queen of Egypt wrote back to my father in a letter thus: "Why didst thou say 'they deceive me' in that way? Had I a son, would I have written about my own and my country's shame to a foreign land?

Thou didst not believe me and hast even spoken thus to me. He who was my husband has died. A son I have not! Never shall I take a servant of mine and make him my husband! I have written to no other country, only to thee have I written! They say thy sons are many: so give me one son of thine! To me he will be husband, but in Egypt he will be king.
"

Suppiluliuma speaks thus to Hani: "......I [myself] was friendly, but you, you suddenly did me evil. You [came] and attacked the man of Kinza whom I [had taken away] from the king of Hurri-land.

I, when I heard this, became angry and I sent [forth] my own troops and chariots and the lords. So they came and attacked your territory, the country of Amka. And when they attacked Amka, which is your country, you probably were afraid; and therefore you keep asking me for a son of mine (as if it were my) duty. [H]e will in some way become a hostage, but [king] you will not make him!"

[Thus spoke] Hani to my father "O my lord!

This [is...] our country's shame! If we had [a son of the king] at all, would we have come to a foreign country and kept asking for a lord for ourselves? Nibhururiya, who was our lord, died; a son he has not. Our lord's wife is solitary. We are seeking a son of our Lord for the kingship in Egypt and for the woman, our lady, we seek him as her husband.

Furthermore, we went to no other country, only here did we come. Now O our lord, give us a son of thine!"


So then my father concerned himself on their behalf with the matter of a son.


Source: The Deeds of Suppiluliuma, the great king.
Fragment 28: KBo V 6 and duplicates
===============
Then of course, there is the aftermath:
------
When they did not send ...., then a tabl[et...] they...and they ...one to another. [When] they brought this tablet, they spoke thus: "[the people of Egypt?] killed [Zannanza] and brought word: "Zannanza [died?]. And when] my father he[ard of] the slaying of Zannanza, he began to lament for [Zannanza and] to the go[ds...] he spoke [th]us: "O Gods! I did [no e]vil, [yet] the people of Egy[pt d]id [this to me] and they also [attacked][ the frontier of my country!" ...heard..

Source: The Deeds of Suppiluliuma, the great king.
Fragment 31, KBo V 6.
=======
In the van de Hout translation/reconstruction of Suppliluliumas' letter back to the new king of Egypt, called KUB XIX, 20, which was published in Phoenix 39,3 (1993), there is an interesting point made by van de Hout on the matter of Hani's (here, called "Chani") involvement in this matter concerning this exchange in the letter:

"...[When the queen of E]gypt wrote again and again, you(?) not [...] was you/she(?). But if you [in the meanwhile? had seated yourself on the throne, then] you could have sent my son back home. [...] Your [serva]nt Chani held us responsible [...] What [have you done] with my son?!"

On EEF, one reviewer noted about this section of the KUB XIX, 20 letter:

"...the poor Hittite father is blamed via Chani, apparently along the lines of 'Why did you send your son, there was already a pharaoh, your son was not needed, you have yourself to blame for this unnecessary tragedy.' ...The "held us (Hittites) responsible" and the startled response "you could have send my son back home" indicates to me that Ay said in his letter that he already was on the throne before the Hittite prince (could have) arrive(d) in Egypt, before Zannanza got killed."

This reference is indicating that Hani covering his tracks before a new Egyptian ruler and attempting to regroup: possibly along the lines suggested by the EEF reviewer, and along the lines of explanation to the king as "Well, your majesty, I can only account for Zannanza's death as an example of Hittite greed for the throne. It must be they were unaware you were already upon the throne and sent Zannanza here with hopes of marrying [the Egyptian Queen.] Therefore, Zannanza's death is their [and possibly that of the 'Egyptian queen'] own fault for being so presumptuous." This was later passed on to Suppiluliumas in some fashion as "...Your [serva]nt Chani held us responsible [...]"

Something in terms of intelligence gathering of Suppiluliumas' own people, such as envoys who were sent to Egypt (more that simply Hattusa-ziti, it appears), had to determine if what the Egyptian queen said was true, and to particularly look for a prince in the waiting, After ascertaining this information, these same people had to convince Supppiluliumas that what the "Egyptian Queen" said was true.

My opinion is (assuming the linguistic and Akkadian scholars are correct in this matter) the dead king of the "Egyptian Queen" correspondence must have been Tutankhamun, and thus, his queen and Hani were not lying about there not being a royal heir. Further, Suppiluliumas' own intelligence gathering (led by Hattusa-ziti] appears to have confirmed their assertions, which is was the Hittite king was willing to send his son to Egypt.

All reports of Suppiluliumas prior to the "Egyptian Queen" correspondence show him to be a cautious and wily warrior and ruler: it does seem very unlikely, to me, he would have just taken either the queen or Hani's word based upon faith, especially after he sent Hattusa-ziti specificially to Egypt to find out if there was deceit on their part about there being "no prince" in the wings ready to take the throne.

So, this summarizes most scholars' reasoning that the Hittite's 'Bibhururiya' = Tutankhamun -- not only linguistically, but in light of subsequent correspondence.

Had "King Neferneferuaten" been the "Egyptian Queen" of the correspondence, I think several things would have happened:

1) assuming the "Egyptian Queen" is writing right after Akhenaten's death, the "lord" who died would have been called "Naph-hururu-riya" (the Akkadian form of Akhenaten's throne name of /nfr-xpr.w-ra/; on this see Giles' argument on Akkadian forms of Egyptian king names (1997)).

2) In gathering information in Egypt about the circumstances surrounding the first letter, Hattusa-ziti would have found, with very little work, I think, evidence that a young son had been born to a son and daughter of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye, and this could have definitely put the kibosh on any plan of Suppiluliumas sending his son to Egypt to marry the "Egyptian Queen." Yet, we know that Hattusa-ziti comes back from Egypt with the second letter, and the plan (at least inasfar as Suppiluliumas sending his son to Egypt) progresses. So, Hattusa-ziti found no evidence of a prince in waiting which would have made this plan fail.

3) Assuming the above, how could "King Neferneferuaten" ever hope of making such a plan work?

I cannot think of what political manoeuvring would have had to take place by "King Neferneferuaten" - assuming it could have occurred at all, based on the well-known xenophobia of the ancient Egyptians (Belova 1998) - to

= 1) put herself on the throne as rule above her royal nephew,

= 2) subsume the ranks of her equally valid royal aunt and uncle, as well as their young son, Tutankhamun, and keep them from objecting (they had a better chance of keeping the dynasty alive, rather that she did), and

= 3) in place of an Egyptian male consort, she takes on a Hittite royal husband - (recall that the Egyptian were at war with Hatti at the time), and expect that such action would be widely accepted by the Egyptian populace.

The fact that Tutankhamun exists at all (IMO) puts any theory of "King Neferneferuaten" as the author of the "Egyptian Queen" correspondence as dubious: "King Neferneferuaten's" position as a king, after the death of Akhenaten, is a shaky position from the outset, and she would have know this. Traditionally, female rulers - particularly those at the end of a dynastic line - are the weakest rulers of all in Egyptian history.

Further, "King Neferneferuaten" had no basis for putting herself through the danger (and of course, humiliation, which comes through these letters very clearly, IMO) of asking for a foreign royal husband. She would have done far better to marry the young heir-to-be (Tutankhamun), and act as an interregnum queen for his rule: traditionally, females who ruled in this fashion gained no only social and political acceptance, but are able to exercise political power far more freely than someone who comes to the throne as an usurper.

One has only to look at the reigns of Ay (who justified his taking the throne in myriad ways - but all "traditionally" Egyptian) and Horemheb (who had even less means of justifying his reign, until he used another traditional mode that was acceptable, the "oracular approach" (see his Coronation Decree for this)) to see that kings without a "traiditonal" dynastic line relation have rather shaky reigns at the beginning until they find some means (marriage to the last dynastic royal female, oracular decrees, or claiming direct family relationship with the preceding king/s) of "justifying" their accession to the throne.

Had "King Neferneferuaten" followed the plan of the "Egyptian Queen" correspondence, she could not hope for popular acceptance of her reign - mainly because a royal son was in the wings, as Suppiluliumas feared.

On the other hand, when one substitutes Ankhsenamun for "King Neferneferuaten", and brings the events up to Tutankhamun's death, one could see a possibility of the plan working, because:

= 1)There is no heir in the wings,

= 2) there is no member of the royal family still living that she could marry within the dynastic line.

= 3) All possible persons who are vying for the position of king are of non-royal lineage, and she is loathe to marry any of these (according to the letters).

So, choosing a fellow royal from another country (perhaps naively), Ankhsenamun is relying upon the touted "brotherhood" of kings to save her from an increasingly desperate political situation (as she saw it).

The fact that the "Egyptian Queen" chooses a Hittite prince as a choice for royal husband is not without some political acumen. Assuming that the plan had worked, it is possible we would now remember this queen positively, as effecting - via marriage - one of the first Egypto-Hittite treaties, which ended war between the two cultures. In short, perhaps this would have ended the war in which the Egyptians were not always in the strongest position.

Had the two empires been actually joined togther in some form, imagine the strength of such an alliance and its effect on the balance of power of the Ancient Near East, had it been successful?

It's something to think about, but not in any way could I see this working in assuming the "Egyptian Queen" was "King Neferneferuaten." This 'king' would gain nothing from such an alliance, and actually had far greater stakes to lose in proceeding with such a plan - something I would think she could ill afford, seeing her shaky political situation as it was.

Reference:

ANET = Pritchard, J. B., Ed. 1969. Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament. Third Ed., Revised, with Supplements. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

Allen, J. P. 1994. Nefertiti and Smenkh-ka-re. Göttinger Miszellen 141: 7-17.

Belova, G. 1998. The Egyptians' Idea of Hostile Encirclement. In C. J. Eyre, Ed., Proceedings of the Seventh International Congress of Egyptologists. Cambridge, 3-9 September 1995: 143-148. Orientalia Louvaniensia Analecta 82. Leuven: Peeters.

Edel, E. 1978. Ein neugefundenes Brieffragment der Witwe des Tutanchamun aus Boghazköy (Nova najdba dela pisma Tutanchamonove vdove iz Bogazkoja). Orientalistika 2: 33-35.

Gabolde, M. 1998. D'Akhenaton à Tutânkhamon. Collection de l'Institut d'Archaeologie et d'Histoire de l'Antiquite 3. Lyon/Paris: Universite Lumiere-Lyon 2, Institut d'Archaeologie et d'Histoire de l'Antiquite/Diffusion de Boccard.

Giles, F. J. 2001. The Amarna Age: Egypt. Australian Centre for Egyptology: Studies 6. Warminster: Aris and Philips Ltd.

Giles, F. J., J. B. Hennessey, et al. 1997. The Amarna Age: Western Asia. Australian Centre for Egyptology: Studies 5. Warminster: Aris and Philips Ltd.

Griffis-Greenberg, K. 2001. Who was Smenkhkare? The Glyph, San Diego Society of the Archaeological Institute of America 1/24: 10-11.

Güterbock, H. 1956. The Deeds of Suppiluliuma as Told by his Son, Mursili II. Journal of Cuneiform Studies 10: 41-68; 75-98; 107-130.

Krauss, R. 1978. Das Ende der Amarnazeit. Hildesheimer Ägyptologische Beiträge 7. Hildesheim: Gerstenberg Verlag.

Murnane, W. J. 1990. The Road to Kadesh: A Historical Interpretation of the Battle Reliefs of King Sety I at Karnak. Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilizations. SAOC 42. Second Ed., Revised. Chicago: Oriental Institute.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankyou Katherine for such an interesting post.

I'm fascinated by the possible circumstances surrounding Ay becoming King, and wish there were better evidence of him being related to the royal family, as it would explain him taking precedence over Horemheb.

In popular culture Ay is often seen as the "evil uncle" but what if he were the Queen's closest male relative? If so he would be the only logical choice, given the Queen's reluctance to marry a "servant". However, as he is outside the male royal line (just possibly the Queen's great-uncle or step or full grandfather) he may not have been initially viewed as a royal heir.

Ay's titles, including "father of the god" are fascinating and possibly represent a clue that he could have been related to the royal family as well as of course a reference to his role during the reigns of Akhenaten and Tutankhamun. Then of course you have Nakhtmin to consider. This probably needs to go into another thread!

Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i always wondered how the egyptian queen could have that correspondance in the first place. how did she manage to keep the throne vacant long enough to convince the hittite king she was telling the truth? by the time his son arrived, ay was king. how long would it have taken for letters to get from turkey to egypt?
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sothis
Priest
Priest


Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The situation after Tut`s death was certainly desperate as their was no royal heir at all, however I do not think that Ankhesenamun could have hoped to get general popular acceptance for her marrying a foreign prince. This is something the Egyptians just loathed too much and of course would have brought much uncertainty as to what the reign of a foreigner would bring for their country.

Apart from that, I can`t believe that even if Ankhesenamun hoped to end the conflict between their countries the Egyptian court wanted the same.
After all the armed conflict between The Hittites and Egyptians had only just begun at the end of Tut`s reign, and the proud and usually successful Egyptians were hardly prepared to give up so quickly and easily, and in such a humiliating manner too.

I am aware that Ramses II finally made piece with the Hittites, but that was only after many years and even decades of battles which neither of them could really win. Having become wary of it they both were left no other option.

But the situation at the end of the previous dynasty was decidedly different and the Egyptian army which is shown to have been victorious in several instances (Hormheb`s tomb, battle narratives) could well have had a chance to beat the Hittites sooner or later or at least to keep them at bay.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said I know there are problems with it but it makes a good story doesn't it? Wink Maybe I should write a historical novel.

To get serious as I understand it the chronology of the two Kings Akhkheperure is confused to say the least. If one is convinced Neferneferuaten is Nefertiti then of course she has to precede Smen and be co-regent with Akhie as Smen is depicted with Meritaten in a relief adjacent to one showing Akhi, Nefi and daughters in typical Amarnan style. To me this suggests he was a direct successor.

The Egyptian queen says SHE has no son, not that there is no royal son at all. And one thing I've learned from the succession crises of other civilizations is that strict legality is not much of a factor when the throne is perceived as being up for grabs. (see the War of the Roses).

IF there was a party opposing Neferuneferuaten-Meritaten, say Aye and Horemheb, backing Tutankhaten and if her party was Atenist and his urged return to the old ways then she wouldn't have been able to solve the problem by marrying her rival - especially if she'd lost custody of him. In that case foreign intervention might seem like her last chance.

The offer to make a foreigner Pharaoh of Egypt is so unprecedented and frankly shocking as to suggest a gesture of desperation. Or a lie. Granted Zananza really disappeared in Egypt and his Dad wrote irate letters to some king about it but the supposed letter could still be later propaganda excusing his barefaced try at seizing Egypt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sothis
Priest
Priest


Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Like I said I know there are problems with it but it makes a good story doesn't it? Wink Maybe I should write a historical novel.

To get serious as I understand it the chronology of the two Kings Akhkheperure is confused to say the least. If one is convinced Neferneferuaten is Nefertiti then of course she has to precede Smen and be co-regent with Akhie as Smen is depicted with Meritaten in a relief adjacent to one showing Akhi, Nefi and daughters in typical Amarnan style. To me this suggests he was a direct successor.

The Egyptian queen says SHE has no son, not that there is no royal son at all. And one thing I've learned from the succession crises of other civilizations is that strict legality is not much of a factor when the throne is perceived as being up for grabs. (see the War of the Roses).

IF there was a party opposing Neferuneferuaten-Meritaten, say Aye and Horemheb, backing Tutankhaten and if her party was Atenist and his urged return to the old ways then she wouldn't have been able to solve the problem by marrying her rival - especially if she'd lost custody of him. In that case foreign intervention might seem like her last chance.

The offer to make a foreigner Pharaoh of Egypt is so unprecedented and frankly shocking as to suggest a gesture of desperation. Or a lie. Granted Zananza really disappeared in Egypt and his Dad wrote irate letters to some king about it but the supposed letter could still be later propaganda excusing his barefaced try at seizing Egypt.


Although I tend to believe that Ankhesenamun was Dahamunzu I am with you on other points. I also thought that the queen`s words (a son I have not) could be meant to cover up the existence of a royal prince who was not her own son.

But then Hani clearly states to the Hittite king (see middle of neseret`s post) that the deceased king has no son which would make this theory fall flat given that Mursilis rendered Hani`s speech accurately.
It still is an incredible story though and smells of anything but an honest request for a husband.

Just a question on Nibhururya: How many instances do we have in which this name refers undoubtedly to Tutankhamun?
AFAIK only one of the Amarna letters (from Burnaburiash) is thought to have been addressed to Tutankhamun. This one instance would not say all that much about other possible renderings of Nebkheperure.
If this letter was addressed to Akhenaten instead he would be a real contender for Nibhururya as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given that the incident was recorded for posterity about a generation after they supposedly happened a certain amount of spin and misrepresentation is not improbable.

I think we can take it as given that a Hittite Prince tried to take advantage of a succession crisis in Egypt - and failed. Whether he did so by invitation or whether that was a later invention to justify his actions is an open question.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried not to do this but I feel like I should tell just a bit. I don't care if you all ridicule me or what even and Kevin you don't have to worry about deleting my post because i'm not going to be around anymore. I'm not trying to sell any books here i'm just trying to get this information out there because its serious eating at me and i'm trying to keep my ancient families name alive and well.

Meritaten didn't die like it was led to believe. Mery was banished away from the court for trying to continue the Aten Cult. The High Priest wasn't going to have that so they forced Ankhesenamun and Tut to banished her Setepenre and Tentenaten(or Tenta'aten) the daughter of Kiya away from the court and i believed they snet off to Abydos.

No, not all of Ankh and Tut's sibling were dead all but Meketaten were still alive. and here's an even bigger twists to the story, there was another son born of Kiya, thus the youngest of the family he was known as Amenhotep Tasherit or hung Foot

Kiya got banished away from Amarna for wrongfully killing Queen Nefertiti whom is KV35. The damaged to KV35's face was done by a golden sharp candle holder used by Kiya to fight off Nefertiti who was choking her and tried to kill her with a small dagger. Nefertiti ended up killing herself in the process, stabbing herself on the side with the dagger.

Outraged by the incident, Queen Tiye and Sitamun demanded that Kiya be removed from court at once, it was Tiye's dying wish because she didn't lived to see her wish being for-filled. Kiya was given a choice to take Tetenaten or Amenhotep with her, and of course she chose her son.

My assumption of Nefertiti being Nebetah is because that's the person whom name Queen Tiye called out to before she died and Nebetah wasn't there, but i belled that Nebetah was already dead. Then there was the KV35 mummy and all the signs from my story from Nefertiti's failed murder attempt. So i conclude that Nebetah was Nefertiti


Smenkhare was sort of a substitute pharaoh because Akhenaten was very ill in his late reign. So the reigns of Neferneferaten and Smenkhare can be combined into to that of Akhenaten's

Tut was crown at Amarna shortly after the death of Nefertiti while Akhenaten was still alive

Kiya left way before Akhenaten died but that was not the last of her she sent her son back down to Egypt right after the reign of Horembed whom's i assumed was shorter than it was expected. By this time Ramses I was the new king and Ankhesenamun and her sisters became the kings main servants.

of all the aunts Beketaten was the only one alive. she was suffering from a rare skin disease that kept her hidden away from people. Beke got executed for assaulting Queen Tia- Sitre, whom i assume was her once lose friend. Her body was burned after this so there may not be a body for Beketaten at all.

young Amenhotep V fell in love with prince Seti.

there is a secret vault or hidden chamber hidden somewhere in the desert of Egypt. To access it one as to place three knocks as if you are forming a pyramid on its sealed door, and it has some traps. the right passage way would lead you to some stairs heading downward that will lead to another do. The right passage is where a bolder will come and slam into you and of course crush you.

Amenhotep V later found himself pushed to the side once Ramses II was born. The Nubian Rebellion he participated in but was severely wounded due to being impaled on the left rib cage by Seti(who was there in Irem during the revolt) Amenhotep V died just a few months or weeks afterwards. Thus after that Ankhesenamun married a Nubian and left to Ethiopia and her big sister left Nubia to go back to Egypt. After this the trail goes cold but i will say that there are Thumosids still on this Earth.

That's it i'm going to hide for a while until something resurfaces see ya. Oh and never ever give up on your beliefs because they may be actually true
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should consider a repost that in this thread:

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6748

I hope the producers of the new TV series being planned can come up with something as interesting.

I do think there's a possible link between the 18th and 19th Dynasties through the female line. Possibly Nefertari was related to Ay because a knob (part of a walking stick or from a chest) was found in her tomb showing his cartouche.

Have you looked into the legend of Scota? I'd suggest moving any discussion like this over to the General Discussion area as per guidance here:

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4314
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
You should consider a repost that in this thread:

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6748

I hope the producers of the new TV series being planned can come up with something as interesting.

I do think there's a possible link between the 18th and 19th Dynasties through the female line. Possibly Nefertari was related to Ay because a knob (part of a walking stick or from a chest) was found in her tomb showing his cartouche.

Have you looked into the legend of Scota? I'd suggest moving any discussion like this over to the General Discussion area as per guidance here:

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4314


Oh i'm so sorry but i don't know how to do anything right but i just had to get it out there. Can you move it for me i don't know how to do it.

but i missed some thing that i should have added in my first post Because i'm at a library timed computer

Neferneferure and Neferneferuaten- Tasherit were almost identical twins. Nefeneferure was sick thought while the other sisters would go to the temple to work Neferneferuaten the younger would stay and look after her

Kiya can be identified as Tadukhipa because she was sent home to Mitanni

The real reason why the 18th dynasty fell is because Ankhesenamun abandoned her title as a Queen not wanting to marry Ay. She ended living like a peasant with the rest of her sisters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why move it? its just going to be ignored anyway.

And no, I think the only link between the two dynasties is that some of the royals such as Meritaten and Ankhesenamun were still very much alive at this time and they helped the new rulers correspond with the foreign leaders and other such matters.

However there is Queen Tia-Sitre whom may have been Ankh's wet nurse.

Oh one final thing the KV21B can be also identified as Nebetnehat. The queen had problems walking with her feet so much so that she needed Female attendants to help her. Nebetnehat was a relative from Queen Tiye's side of the family.

That's i'm going under the sands of Egpyt see ya in mid 2014
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robson
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1001
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3980
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
... there was another son born of Kiya, thus the youngest of the family he was known as Amenhotep Tasherit ...

Amenhotep the tiny? A transsexual son? Now it gets really mixed...

Lutz

P.S.: Please do yourself, the world and us a favor and go and see a doctor.
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: (Sigh) Whatever Reply with quote

Laugh, but can either of you prove me wrong? NO. Amenhotep the younger was named after his father Amenhotep IV and he did had some feminine qualities not that you mention transsexual. It was hard to tell what i was. He was also called "Hung Foot" possibly because he has weird feet.


I'm not backing out with this story because you feel that i'm a fool. I'm trying to help you all understand what really took place during the late 18th and early 19th dynasty just like Ohm Sety did with her story. I'm going at this strong.


P.S. there is nothing totally wrong with me. To me its like you're telling the Hindus that they all need to see a doctor because they too believe in reincarnation( and not the reincarnation that is fantasized by you).

I say to you, can you prove us wrong Lutz? Did you create the earth and the tides? Did you create all of the lands and mountains? and who the hell are you to tell me that i'm sick? Okay yeah i'm sick, sick of you. I've been watching you Lutz and all you do is ridicule people about their beliefs and Theories as if you were there when they built the pyramids. You know little of nothing

I have a question for you do you think that Dorothy Eady was sick because of her beliefs?

Oh and before you ridicule me about Ohm Sety, Dorothy Eady is one of the reasons why I published my story in the first place. Before hand I wanted to walk away from my story in fear of ignorant people like you. I KNEW NOTHING OF THE TOPICS THAT I TALKED ABOUT, hell I was only 18 years old. I knew nothing of Dorothy Eady, The Amarna Period, Seti I, Queen Nefertiti, her daughters, Queen Kiya, Akhenaten, or the 18th dynasty until after my very own experience. She has helped me a great deal with this whole thing, yet i'm still afraid because i'm afraid of people.

The only person that I knew of from that time period was Tutankhamen and even that was of very vital information.

You will not shame me for what I believe. Prove me wrong, I dare you I want you to. But until then, be quiet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now for those of you who would like to know what happened:

Kiya was the only one of her generation that was around having survived through four Pharaoh's reign up to Seti's reign. Horembed's reign may have been shorter than what it was led to believe.

Kiya came back to Egypt, trying to save he two children and their half-siblings from the tyranny of Seti. It was indeed the Rammeside Pharoahs that erase many of the Thutmosid Pharaohs from history( pacifically Seti I and Ramses II)

During their reigns they moved Akhenaten's grave to a different location the face of the coffin was there when i saw it.

Once again Kiya was banished away from Egypt but this time she had to leave two of he children behind( Tenta'aten and Amenhotep V). This greatly affected everyone, but the youngest the most.

Meritaten, Setenpre, Ankhesenamen, Tenta'aten, and Amenhotep were very important to the king as they held some important roles to Seti. Hung Foot being the most important because Seti had feelings for him

As a matter of fact, many of Seti's monuments were planned out by both Seti and Amenhotep V, not Seti and Ramses. There was someone in line before Ramses II and that individual was Amenhotep V. Even after all the drama that played out between the two. Seti directly commanded on his death bed for his three children( Tia, Henutmire, and Ramses II) to find Amenhotep but Amenhotep was already dead by the time of Seti's own demise.

There was once four children, Seti's first son died extremely young

Also we had a cousin named Psetenupe that was around. Psetenupe was the daughter of either Iset or Sitamun. She disliked Hung Foot for some reason

If you don't believe me that Kiya was alive just look at the physical evidence.

Her grave goods being used for Akhenaten's burial
Her precious Maru-aten being reused by Ankh and Mery
All depictions of her and Tenta'aten being erased
These is no other indication stating that she died at Amarna



Yeah, that's a sure sigh of disgrace because she was. Kiya was sort of kept to the side during the Amarna Period. Tentenaten " meant she of the aten" similar to Tentamun. I think many of Akhenaten's children names paid homage to their early 18th dynasty ancestors

Yeah, I know, I said that I wasn't coming back to this site until later in 2014 but I just had to see what Lutz had to say as he always has something negative to say about something and i had to get a little rough and left him know that i'm a force to be reckon with.

I'm not a crazy person, I don't do drugs or alcohol. I don't even go out unless its to the library, school, the grocery stores, or work, i don't have much of a social life. I don't have hallucinations and all the fantasies I've had were well...sexual. I have had something like this happened to me before but never on a level like this.

I joined this site looking for answers and asking questions of things I did not know at the time all this was playing out to me. I'm 23 years old now wiser and full of knowledge because of this site, and of my experiences.

All I wanted to do is share what I knew about this family. I myself is waiting for proof that my visions were actually factual. I see 2014 as a great year for Egyptology there are more to be revealed in that time I wish that do find something significant, until then i'll be waiting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group