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Missing sarcophagus/tomb

 
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Missing sarcophagus/tomb Reply with quote

This has probably beeen covered in a previous thread, though idly looking through quite a lot of the Amarna section today, could not find specific mention of this aspect. It is a "staring you in the face thing" I know. However, We have four monarchs, Akhenaten, Nefernefruaten, Smenkhare and Tutankhamun. We have a sarcophagus, smashed, for Akhenaten, and a sarcophagus, altered, for Tutankhamun. His sarcophagus was originally made for a female, Neferneferuaten, whether Nefertiti or not. So, where is the sarcophagus for Smenkhare? and where, if Nefertiti is not Nefernefruaten, is hers?. I don't intend to make any statement about whether Nefertiti is or is not Nefernefruaten, or who the KV55 body is by name, this has been discussed to death. Yet if, for instance, KV55 is Smenkhare, where is his funerary equipment, his tomb and sarcophagus?. Tutankhamun's equipment is a mix of his own, Nefernefruaten's and possibly Akhenaten's. Whichever way this is looked at, we have a missing tomb for Smenkhare as a minimum, do we not? and also a missing tomb for Neferneferuaten, though as the sarcophagus was removed for Tutankhamun, maybe the tomb was re-used and not yet indentified. But why take the sarcophagus out of it's tomb and re-use it in the pokey hole that is KV62, where's the mummy? and why not just put Tutankhamun in the tomb that his sarcophagus came from?. Yes, I know, lots of question marks that we cannot properly answer at this time. We have a tomb and a sarcophagus for Akhenaten, though, according to some, no body (I believe his body was destroyed btw), and a body, believed by some, to be Smenkhare, but no tomb, sarcophagus or funerary equipment. And if Neferneferuaten is not Nefertiti, then were is Nefertiti?
Tombs and no bodies, bodies and no tombs, names and no bodies, bodies and no names. I love this Smile
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good questions in my opinion

What a huge gapping whole we have at the end of the armarna Period

They pretty much destroyed the kv55 mummy in my opinion
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where are the coffins of Thutmosis III, Amenhotep II, Thutmosis IV, Amenhotep III, etc. ... ?

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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably re-used in Dynasty 21, or taken by the robbers when the tombs were desecrated. KV43, for instance, looks to have been ripped to pieces by the robbers. Not even the coffin for prince Amenemhat remains, and his sad mummy stacked against the wall like firewood. I think it would depend on if some of the tombs were emptied by officials before being robbed, or ripped apart by the thieves.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if a survey has been done of all the royal sarcophagi that can be dated to after the Amarana period, to see if they have been re-used, and by who. I know it is a simplistic question, but do we rely on the descriptions of these sarcophagi from their original finders, who in the 19th century may not have looked for signs of re-use. I mean, it is obvious that Tutankhamun's was altered, at a glance almost, as it was originally for a female, but see an alteration from one male to another would need careful examination. Such a simple thing, yet maybe nobody has ever bothered ?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Where are the coffins of Thutmosis III, Amenhotep II, Thutmosis IV, Amenhotep III, etc. ... ?

Ikon wrote:
Probably re-used in Dynasty 21, or taken by the robbers when the tombs were desecrated. KV43, for instance, looks to have been ripped to pieces by the robbers. Not even the coffin for prince Amenemhat remains, and his sad mummy stacked against the wall like firewood. I think it would depend on if some of the tombs were emptied by officials before being robbed, or ripped apart by the thieves.

And what exactly makes you think that this has not happened with the "missing" coffins of the rulers from Amarna you mentioned?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
I wonder if a survey has been done of all the royal sarcophagi that can be dated to after the Amarana period, to see if they have been re-used, and by who. ...

Patrick Farsen : Königliche Särge und Sarkophage des Neuen Reiches - Bestattungszubehör der Könige und Königinnen von der 17. bis zur 21. Dynastie. - München : AVM, 2011. - ISBN-10 : 3869240512. - ISBN-13 : 978-3869240510. - 232 p.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course their coffins and sarcophagi could, and probably were, re-used, I do not suggest otherwise. However, if Nefertiti is not Nefernefrure, why has no funerary equipment come to light? And yes, I am aware of the controversial shabti that may have been from Nefertiti and not for Nefertiti. Can any of Tutankhamun's funerary equipment be shown to have belonged to Smenkhare by name? To me it seems he used that of Nefernefrure, though I admit that the second coffin looks more like a man than a woman. These questions should continue to be asked until we have answers, if we ever do. And my German is certainly not good enough to translate something technical about AE. I, or anybody, who is not a professional Egyptpologist, cannot be expected to read all the literature in all languages.

I think we cannot always assume that those in the past have done the best job they could have done in regards examining ancient artifacts. Not everybody was a Howard Carter, and it only needs one small error to be made reading a damaged cartouche or some other artifact, and we spend the next 100 years thinking we know a certain fact about a person or object, and we are actually wrong.

Is there a synposis of that book? something like a list that says coffin or sarcophagus "X" was previously used, and who the original owner may have been. And there are still missing tombs for Nefertiti, Nefernefrure and Smenkhare.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea why do you bring up Neferneferura, 5th daughter of Nefertiti and Akhenaton and at most 7 years old when Akhenaton died, in this connection ...

The name "Semenchkara" is not recorded on an object from KV 62. It is believed he once was in one of four erased cartouches on an calcite vessel from KV 62 (Carter No. 405 ; Christian E. Loeben : No Evidence of Coregency - Two Erased Inscriptions from Tutankhamen's Tomb. - In: Amarna Letters - Essays on Ancient Egypt, c. 1390 - 1310 BC - 3. - 1994. - pp. 104 - 109 ; In contradiction Nicolas Reeves : Complete Tutankhamun (1990)).

The coffins could not only be reused, they could also be destroyed by robbers, like for example the coffins for Amenhotep III, as far as we know and the rudimentary discoveries in KV 22 document (Nozomu Kawai : Some Remarks on the Funerary Equipment from the Tomb of Amenhotep III - KV 22. - In: FS Wilkinson. - 2013. - pp. 149 - 172)). In the Royal Wady at Amarna are enough unidentified tombs coming in question for the people you mentioned. The destruction of there equipment may well be happening already there. The evidence base is simply too thin...

I can not get used to the idea that the resist used coffins and canopic jars from KV 62 were actually used before for a funeral. The idea that the intestines of one king are removed from the golden canopic coffinets and replaced by the intestines of another king does not fit, in my view, to the conceptual world of the Egyptians. Much more likely for me is that the objects made for a funeral of Anch(et)cheperura Neferneferuaton have never been used for a burial of this female king - because she was not buried as king?

I am not a "professional Egyptologist", gives me that now the right to ignore the English and French literature?

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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly I meant Neferneferuaten, and I am rather surprised you did not see that....

No wonder this forum is moribund.....
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
Clearly I meant Neferneferuaten, and I am rather surprised you did not see that.... No wonder this forum is moribund.....

Because I can not read minds? And therefore I do not know that you do not mean / think what you write? Really funny...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said. no wonder this forum is moribund. Clearly no further point continuing this thread. Don't know why I even bothered.....
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
As I said. no wonder this forum is moribund. Clearly no further point continuing this thread. Don't know why I even bothered.....


I understood clearly what u have been talking about and still think those were very good . Questions.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
As I said. no wonder this forum is moribund. Clearly no further point continuing this thread. Don't know why I even bothered.....

A rather strange kind of self-perception... As long as the administrator of this forum does not introduce any obligation to answer for members, I would say you'll have no choice but to live with it?

By the way, my posts (especially the one from Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:53 am, actually with English-language literature indicating) containing, in my view, quite debatable statements ... However, you obviously ignore.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U know I find it very interesting that there was no tomb for Smenkhare perhaps there was little time to built him one. I think the priests killed him
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