Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Seshat
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:40 am    Post subject: Seshat Reply with quote

I am looking for information re Seshat, specifically examples/references relative to dynasty and reign. I find reference during the reign of Hatshepsut, are there any other references you can point me to? - and if so, (if known) was the then current reign male or female?

thx
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wainwright wrote an article called "Seshat and the Pharaoh"
It's available from gizapyramids.org:
http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf%20library/scharff_jea_26_1940.pdf

Hope that helps.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! thx for the pdf link but I was unable to make things happen?! - I am really new to research of this kind (this is purely my hobby) and I am not 100% sure how to ask for what I want, so please bare with me...

I downloaded the pdf you linked and it tells me that there is an article by Wainwright called Seshat and the Pharaoh on page 30, but there is no page 30. It seems it is published in 'journal 25' and I tried finding that on-line without success.

I would like to read the article but my interest is primarily in finding the actual reliefs (and pictures thereof) or original (translated to english if poss.) texts relating to Seshat; for example, 'relief on X-wall, in Y-chamber at Z-site'

What I am trying to establish is if there is a link between 'female kingship' and use of Seshat in 'preference' to Tehuti during reign, albeit where the latter is shown to take an 'inferior' role

I am aware of the use of Seshat specifically ref; Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahri, but this is the only use I can find other than some vague references in context of 'stretching-of-the-cord' during the old kingdom, and even with them I am unable to connect them to a specific reign

I appreciate your help, thx again

And, Hi! it's good to meet ya!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will email the article to you Smile I can download it for you.

Finding images of scenes with Seshat may require a google image search.
I found one dating to the time of Pepy I
http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/3576

Seshat and Horus at the temple of Edfu (I think that's Ptolemaic?)
http://www.siloam.net/mossman/seshat2.gif

Here's one from the time of Ramesses II:
http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=10750
(click on image at the bottom of the page to see more detail)

I don't think Seshat is really linked perse with female royalty. She seems to be associated with possibly the stretching of the chord or other foundation rituals?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx! - these pics were exactly what I was looking for, unfortunately I was unable to read the article you emailed - all I was able to open was a bunch (11?) of blank pages, but really it was the physical 'evidence' I was more interested in, less so the Ptolemic representation, my interest extends through the middle kingdom and I am suspicious of later works and 'origination'

It kinda answers (or goes part way) to answering my sporadic thought... that tehuti/seshat might be specific (even interchangeable) 'roles' adopted by the monarch himself (hence the interest relative to male/female kingship at time of origination)

The Pepi II/Senwosret example appears to show Seshat making record of the the 'god's' house/temple thereby fulfilling her role as recorder of 'stretcher-of-the-cord' etc.; the Rameses example appears to show her in a joint role with Tehuti (interestingly on thrones - balanced with Ptah in similar position as creator) indicating regal years (shown by the two (hooked) papyrus stems on either side

Don't worry about my lack of ability to read the article, although if there is a SIMPLE way to send it as plain text I would be an appreciative recipient Smile

I find it interesting that we do not see more of Seshat through the ages, she seems to have had clear roles and my simple mind tells me that we should be seeing her EVERYWHERE, but there again perhaps her role more more 'mysterious' or occult and not to be common-knowledge (that makes a bit of sense)

Anyway, thx again!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

have you seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seshat

or this?

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/seshat.htm

my understanding of seshat was that she was the female version of thoth? or his wife?
here's something from the 'illustrated dictionary of mythology' by phillip wilkinson.

"seshat, known as the queen of the library. she was the wife of ptah, god of writing. she is portrayed wearing a headress adorned with a seven pointed star and panther skin robe. she acted as scribe to the gods, noting the taxes they collected and the spoils they won in battle"
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mandi
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 276
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: No idea Reply with quote

But just to be funny, are you sure Seshat wasn't just Thoth's drag name? That is ofcourse, if Thoth had a propensity to appear in drag shows as well as libraries and scribal schools and ofcourse temples and the like.... bs Sometimes i am full of it....
_________________
Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strangely, Thoth in drag is kinda close to where my weird mind started with this thread... what I was sorta wondering was if Thoth might actually be seen as a 'position', like 'general of the armies' or 'high preist of coconuts' or something... but a position held only by the 'king' - and my knowledge of her was limited to Hatshepsut, hence my inquiry... but alas it seems not, other examples can be found with her shown when the reign was definitely male

I just feel, although I can't put my finger on it, that there is something more to Seshat, or rather the Seshat/Thoth role thing than we are currently aware of... until then Thoth in drag will do! - although it seems they were all in drag, perhaps hands in air singing, 'I will survive' or 'we are family'... hey! there's an idea for a musical hit, huh?! - ha! Mama Mia take two, my wife would love it!

Good to meet ya!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mandi
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 276
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:15 pm    Post subject: My understanding Reply with quote

My understanding is Thoth is a god of writing in ancient among other things. But for more information i suggest consulting Crowley's tarot deck and book, The Book Of Thoth. Twisted Evil

You mean you think Thoth, may have been more an office of a sort, like president, a title. But i am fairly sure Thoth was a single god? And an individual god? I am also pretty sure i remember reading he was married to some goddess or other though forr the life of me i can not recall which one.

But i dunno if you have ever read Greek myths? First there was nothing, then nothing gave birth to something don't recall what, and that whatever then reproduced with nothing resulting in an ocean or something which gave birth with whatever to then create something else etc, several generations then we get the titans. then we get a time of intermingling with the egyptian god of olympus after they are born (such as Zeus's first wife, Metis) Ultimately he ate her or something and she then resided in his head and gave him migraines while birthing Athena (but who can blame her? He deserved it.... He ate her for goddess sake, if that isn't domestic battery what is???) and then Zeus converted to mormonism and married Hera. At which point they reproduced some (with Metis still in his head!!!) And Zeus still couldn't keep it in his pants.... And ultimately that lead him to breed with Leto who gave birth to Apollo and Dianna. And eventually Apollo rose in fame and in the establishment it seems to the point that Helios had to take over his 'lower' duties while Apollo pretty much seems to have almost been equal to or superior to zeus??? (not certain on this point) The point is, we know the egyptian gods to some degree had generations as well. So perhaps, it is just 2 different generations spit out similar gods? after all Gods of just about all pantheons do seem to be grossly inbred. (The spanish crown would have been proud.) But it explains too why the world is as messed up as it is. You can't expect an developmentally challenged (due to inbreeding) god to actually get it right.... Yes God may be fit for the special olympics, however running a super aplication of Sims city/universe, and actually managing to keep it going for any length of time requires a lack of inbred retardation. Which ofcourse lends credence to the multi god theory as opposed to the christian one. It also explains how 2 different gods could have good penmanship. Talents are to some degree as genetic as developmental handicaps.... Ofcourse that would imply gods are human though and not gods ssooo maybe the atheists are right? bleh... who can say....
_________________
Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mandi and congrats. on your 'new' husband, do you trade them in periodically? ha!. You might be right about 'disturbing Ma'at' as you mentioned in your 'hello post', you are all over the place in your post above, but I sense we might just have a good conversation or two. You live in a beautiful city, I remember Vienna as being very clean, trams and of course for the home or house of 'god' (Mozart) - it was a long time ago

I shared a bit of time with a girl from Vienna back during the winter of '96(?!) in Aswan, Luxor and down the Nile to Cairo, it was a strange trip full of weirdness and for some reason she and I were both encountering troubles in our travels, anyway I remember her as being very nice and I was happy to have met her - a good advertisement for her country I thought. Saltzburg was my favorite

Anyway... this chatter is just my way of saying, hello!

To your post...

Thoth is indeed a very interesting character and one I have been 'studying' for some time, I am not too interested in the Crowley side of things, a bit too 'occult' (not that that's a bad thing) for me

I think the 'marriage' you mention with Thoth may be in reference to Ma'at, and yes I find this metaphysical relationship interesting, I do not think you can study the one without the other, indeed the entire subject of Ma'at is one which I am particularily interested in

I am not really into the whole subject of Greek influenced mythology, I understand the relationship, but just as I tend to step over the Ptolemiac side of thing, so I do with the (directly) Greek, I am more interested in source than the interpretations of others, in other words I like to make my own interpretations if that makes sense to ya!

Your mention of atheism and touching on 'personal' beleifs is not something I think this board is set up to cover, but it is a subject that I would be happy to discuss, perhaps not in this thread but if you are interested and want to set up something in the 'general section' I would gladdly participate and share my own thought (and beliefs) in this direction

Do I sense that your interest in things Egyptian is an indication that you are seeking? - for what I dunno, but looking for answers to (let's just call them) some of life's 'bigger questions'?

I really want to particpate in the spirit of this forum and do not want to drag things off into other realms, but my offer above is open

Again, hello!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mandi
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 276
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject: Ok then.... Reply with quote

Yes i am seeking to answer large questions that is true.

No i was engaged for several years and just got married. This is my first marriage and knock on wood, the only one. So i don't trade in husbands.

Yes i can be all over the place sorry, that is just part of who i happen to be.

I wasn't indicating that greek mythology and egyptian were directly or in anyway linked or even that one influenced the other. I was stating a hard cold clear fact. In both Gods reproduce. And when you have these generations it seems sometimes you find 2 different god performing the same or similar task. I used greek to point this out because it was very easy and held good examples, for example, you have Artemis in greek myth and later you have Selene. I was suggesting maybe a similar idea as to egyptian gods. As the people's lives grow and chan ge etc, a few new gods some even very similar to old ones make their way into the pantheon. I could have used the roman deities, those of the celts, those of the norse etc had i felt so inclined. But i used greek because it was the most basic and simple.

Clearly, you need to find and pray to the egyptian god of humor for a bit. As my mention of Crowley's book of thoth was intended quite entirely as a joke. As was about 60% of my discussion of the gods.

Yes Vienna is a beautiful city.

And i think you need to pray to the egyptian god of humor and sactrifice some dead thing in a temple some where to said god. Because i wasn't being particularly serious and a large portion of my post was meant to be funny rather than serious. And if you missed it then i doubt we will be having future conversations. As there is really little for use to say to eachother.



Best of luck and guten tag!
_________________
Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheeesh! - well I just went and sacrificed some flakes of corn to Kellogeshat, the goddess-who-must-be-obeyed; and after ceremony she disclosed to me her secret... that the Universe laughs when I laugh, and cries when I cry - she looked into her great bowl at my pathetic offering and told me that the Universe can only reflect in return, as I give unto her (she demanded more)- then she ate her cornflakes and left to go to work
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mandi
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 276
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Kellogeshat? Reply with quote

Uhhuh, would you be talking about your wife daughter or girlfriend? I assume as you say work, it must be wife or girlfriend.... Very cute.... My husband just calls me The Government. And he knows, if you don't obey the government you are in far more trouble than if you disobey a god.

What i would like to know is if you speak so of your better half (the female half, always the better half) what must you think about your cat (that is if you have a cat) After all, cornflake gods are whipped cream compared to cat gods...
_________________
Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooo .... Back to Seshat please Very Happy
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhh... the energy of Sekhemet is strong here I think. And yes, most assuredly the female is (by far) the stronger of the species. Indeed the man who knoweth this not, shows his weakness and bringeth about his own demise through fear

As the wise man once said; wine is stronger than men, kings are stronger than wine, women stronger yet, but Love conquers all

My wife put the cats out to play with the ducks picking at the residue remains of the corn flakes

Peace, Love and Understanding

I think it is the balance that is important and perhaps this is where Seshat indeed came into play... but rarely mentioned relative to the volume of Tehuti around, that I find interesting...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group