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The Berlin Nefertiti bust is FAKE!
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
it's to represent that she is wealthy and well fed. fat necks were a sign that you didn't have to work for your food. that's why people in the ancient world thought fatter people were better.


Thanks, that makes sense. I knew about the fat-bellies thing, I didn't know it extended further, kinda reasonable to assume some sense outta the volumous hips and thighs imagary too I guess. Thx, very interesting
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
Just curious, from (figure 62) above. Is there the hint of an adam's apple? or is it just wear and tear? - if deliberate, why carve it?


By a curious coincidence, all three of Tutankhamun's coffins and his mummy mask also display those lines or folds on the throat.

They're sometimes difficult to see if the picture is take face-on, but if the pictures are taken from the side, or from below at an angle, they're apparent.

They're also visible on a lot of other objects in the tomb. The stoppers on the canopic chest exhibit them, for example. I can't tell about the little "coffinettes", as I can only find a clear picture of the neck from the inside atm, but they seem to appear there, if my eyes aren't deceiving me. Both Tut and Ankhesenamun have them on the "Little Gold Shrine". They appear on a lot of objects from the tomb. There are also a lot of depictions where they don't appear.

Outside the tomb, there are wall reliefs at Luxor temple of Tut showing lines on his throat.

There seems no convention, nor rhyme or reason for their appearance or non-appearance, as far as I can tell. A statue of Ay's putative son, Nakhtmin, has them. Wall paintings in the tomb of Horemheb, of the King making offerings to various gods and goddesses show them. Curiously, from what I can see, the King does not, while the gods and goddesses do. From a very quick check, I don't see them appearing in depictions of King nor gods in the tomb of Seti I, yet they appear in depictions of the Royal family in his temple at Abydos.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shall have to pay attention to this I think. Maybe it is nothing, I'm sure that's what many will say; and perhaps (as you say) there is no rhyme nor reason, or there again maybe there is... perhaps a specific school of art, or those copy-carving under a specific master. Shall keep eyes open...
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is nothing more than an artistic expression.
The first example (of which I am aware) is the statue of Tiye, standing at the feet of Amenhotep III--the so-called Colossus of Memmon.
Then there are several examples from Amarnan art.
Nefertari, the wife of Rameses the Great, is also shown with the folds of flesh, or lines, in the paintings in her tomb.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks kinda disgusting. They should have left it out. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Razz


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The next wrinkle!

I just received my Summer 2009 Kmt, and the cover story is "Nefertiti's Last Secret" (Last? -MFJ)... in which Dr. Rolf Krauss makes the claim that, rather than the bust being fake, that the stela allegedly kept by the Antiquities Service for the Cairo museum in exchange for the bust going to Berlin was faked by Borchardt.

It further alleges that it wasn't the first time Borchardt had faked an antiquity... although the earlier incident sounds more like a prank to me than a fake.

The editor's note opines that this is cause for returning the Nefertiti bust from Berlin to Cairo.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
freeTinker wrote:
Just curious, from (figure 62) above. Is there the hint of an adam's apple? or is it just wear and tear? - if deliberate, why carve it?


it's to represent that she is wealthy and well fed. fat necks were a sign that you didn't have to work for your food. that's why people in the ancient world thought fatter people were better.


She doesn't look fat to me on that pic... Think Think
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
The next wrinkle!

I just received my Summer 2009 Kmt, and the cover story is "Nefertiti's Last Secret" (Last? -MFJ)... in which Dr. Rolf Krauss makes the claim that, rather than the bust being fake, that the stela allegedly kept by the Antiquities Service for the Cairo museum in exchange for the bust going to Berlin was faked by Borchardt.

It further alleges that it wasn't the first time Borchardt had faked an antiquity... although the earlier incident sounds more like a prank to me than a fake.

The editor's note opines that this is cause for returning the Nefertiti bust from Berlin to Cairo.


Interesting. Do you have a pic of this stelae? And based upon what evidence does the article claim it is fake?

Hatshepsut wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
freeTinker wrote:
Just curious, from (figure 62) above. Is there the hint of an adam's apple? or is it just wear and tear? - if deliberate, why carve it?


it's to represent that she is wealthy and well fed. fat necks were a sign that you didn't have to work for your food. that's why people in the ancient world thought fatter people were better.


She doesn't look fat to me on that pic... Think Think


Exactly Laughing . It looks out of place. Unless it was symbolic of the wealthy.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The latest copy isn't on line yet, gypsy.
I was going to post the site here, and you could check out the article for yourself. It may be there late, it's at:

www.kmtjournal.com

It's the Vol 20, Number 2 Summer 2009 issue, and has a picture of the stele in question on the cover.
It's a very interesting article, With all the talk recently about the bust being or not being a fake, I was quite surprised when this article didn't mention the bust.
I strongly advise getting a copy of this, and reading the theories. It makes a good point, in my opinion.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
Just curious, from (figure 62) above. Is there the hint of an adam's apple? or is it just wear and tear? - if deliberate, why carve it?


In Amarna art, the artists were living up to the artistic philosophy of /anx m mAat/, or "living in truth". The implication of this philosophy is that subjects should be shown as they appear in life.

Thus, the lines at the neck (as well as rolls at the belly and even the change in the depiction of the navel on the Amarna royals) was to indicate advancing age of the subject (Eaton-Krauss 1981). Some news was made a few months ago that in reality, the Nefertiti bust core shows a woman of age, not the eternal youthful beauty everyone considers her to be.

Similarly, a full body statue of Nefertiti, also found in the Berlin Museum, shows an aging Nefertiti with a drawn looking face, sagging breasts, and the beginning of a pot belly (considering she had given birth to at least 6 children, quite understandable). The statue is incomplete, but still shows the beauty of the queen, much older than her original relief carvings, and likely after the Nefertiti bust was created.

What was the purpose of showing age on a subject during this period in Egypt? After all, the standard portrayal of royal persons was to show them eternally youg, idealised and healthy - something which was contradicted during the Amarna period.

Well, like the famous yew-wood bust of Tiye, it's thought that showing age on certain royal woman placed them in the honoured positions of /tA rxy.t/ or "wise women". Such women were able to aid the king in giving advice, and it's thought that Tiye promoted such a belief about herself. Thus, it's possible that Nefertiti also wished to be seen as a /tA rx.t/, based upon her almost-equal status with Akhenaten.

Reference:

Borghouts, J. F. 1982. Divine Intervention in Ancient Egypt and its Manifestation (bAw). In Gleanings from Deir el-Medīna: 1-70. (Discusses the phenomenon of the /tA rx.t/ in village life of commoners, as well as to the royal family.)

Eaton-Krauss-M. 1981. Miscellanea Amarnensia. CdE 56/112: 245-264. (Discusses the forms of artistic changes to Amarna art in showing advancing age of the royal family.)

HTH.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
The latest copy isn't on line yet, gypsy.
I was going to post the site here, and you could check out the article for yourself. It may be there late, it's at:

www.kmtjournal.com

It's the Vol 20, Number 2 Summer 2009 issue, and has a picture of the stele in question on the cover.
It's a very interesting article, With all the talk recently about the bust being or not being a fake, I was quite surprised when this article didn't mention the bust.
I strongly advise getting a copy of this, and reading the theories. It makes a good point, in my opinion.


Thanks so much! I'll have a look! Very Happy

neseret wrote:
freeTinker wrote:
Just curious, from (figure 62) above. Is there the hint of an adam's apple? or is it just wear and tear? - if deliberate, why carve it?


In Amarna art, the artists were living up to the artistic philosophy of /anx m mAat/, or "living in truth". The implication of this philosophy is that subjects should be shown as they appear in life.

Thus, the lines at the neck (as well as rolls at the belly and even the change in the depiction of the navel on the Amarna royals) was to indicate advancing age of the subject (Eaton-Krauss 1981). Some news was made a few months ago that in reality, the Nefertiti bust core shows a woman of age, not the eternal youthful beauty everyone considers her to be.

Similarly, a full body statue of Nefertiti, also found in the Berlin Museum, shows an aging Nefertiti with a drawn looking face, sagging breasts, and the beginning of a pot belly (considering she had given birth to at least 6 children, quite understandable). The statue is incomplete, but still shows the beauty of the queen, much older than her original relief carvings, and likely after the Nefertiti bust was created.

What was the purpose of showing age on a subject during this period in Egypt? After all, the standard portrayal of royal persons was to show them eternally youg, idealised and healthy - something which was contradicted during the Amarna period.

Well, like the famous yew-wood bust of Tiye, it's thought that showing age on certain royal woman placed them in the honoured positions of /tA rxy.t/ or "wise women". Such women were able to aid the king in giving advice, and it's thought that Tiye promoted such a belief about herself. Thus, it's possible that Nefertiti also wished to be seen as a /tA rx.t/, based upon her almost-equal status with Akhenaten.

Reference:

Borghouts, J. F. 1982. Divine Intervention in Ancient Egypt and its Manifestation (bAw). In Gleanings from Deir el-Medīna: 1-70. (Discusses the phenomenon of the /tA rx.t/ in village life of commoners, as well as to the royal family.)

Eaton-Krauss-M. 1981. Miscellanea Amarnensia. CdE 56/112: 245-264. (Discusses the forms of artistic changes to Amarna art in showing advancing age of the royal family.)

HTH.


Wow!! Very informative, Neseret! Thanks for that. Smile
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