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kiya and nefertiti
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: kiya and nefertiti Reply with quote

i was googling, and came across the page on nefertiti by wikipedia
it says that the 'younger lady' mummy is now thought to be kiya because of dna matches with tutankhamun. the nubian wig previously thought to be nefertiti's, is now identified with kiya.
it also says that nefertiti may be the elder lady, though i thought it was definently tiye, because of tiye's lock of hair found in tut's tomb.

the page on tiye also says that dna was taken from the 'elder lady' teeth, and tiye's sample hair from tutanhamun's tomb. it states that they matched, even though the info says the mummy is more consistant with a 29 yo rather then a 59 yo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefertiti

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiye
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm still trying to find anything on these subject's, but i'm not finding much.
i did find marianne luban's essay on the mummy of nefertiti/younger lady.

http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/do_we_have_.htm
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's strange. The reports about the DNA analysis on the remains of the elder lady mummy is not given a citation.

The whole idea that the younger lady is now identified as Kiya comes from a discovery channel documentary if I'm not mistaken. This is one of those theories Hawass has come up with. And I think the theory was proposed to make the documentary more "spectacular".

I think all we know for sure is that the elder lady's hair matches a lock of hair found in Tutankhamen's tomb. That the younger lady is now apparently though to be a lady after Hawass claimed for a while that DNA had showed it to be a man.

The CT scans of the younger lady do seem to indicate that the person was murdered. The wounds are thought to be consistent with wound leading to her death.

I don't think any difinitive DNA results are available. From what I have read they are trying to extract ancient DNA, but it is still difficult to sequence it.
I have not seen any scientific publications that report any of the findings, nor have any of these supposed findings (reported in the media only it seems) been independently verified.



Press release on CT scans This release gives a more "sober" assessment.
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i did think that it was weird there were no sources for the information, and googling didn't help.

i wouldn't be surprised if the identification with kiya was hawass' idea. he is really desperate for a correct theory this time. and i think he puts the theory of nefertiti down so hard, because he couldn't jump in the spotlight with the idea first.

i think it is smart to say the tests are inconclusive, but i wish they would say something every now and then, even if it is to say that the tests aren't working!!

i do think that joanne fletcher had narrowed the possibilities with her search, even if people don't agree, she had some interesting idea's. i first read and agreed totally, but thinking again, she did a good job. i mean, at least she managed to narrow down the mummy's period. end of 18th dynasty sounds good. plus, there are only a few known queens that fit the bill of being murdered, and they fit the amarna royals too. of course she could be someone completely unexpected, that we never thought could be removed in such a way.

i do wish they would make up their minds about dna testing though. some say it works and other's say it doesn't.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if narrowing it down to roughly the Amarna period leaves quite a few candidates for the murdered lady.

1. Queen Sitamen. The daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye disappears rather suddenly at the end of Amenhotep's reign. She is attested at the royal palace in Malqata, and is present at the time of the sed festivals I think.

2. Queen Isis was the younger sister of Amenhotep and became queen in ca year 34 of Amenhotep III's reign. She seems to disappear as well.

3. Queen Nefertiti. No one knows to what end she came.

4. Queen Kiya

5. Queen Meritaten. She is queen with Smenkhare, but dies at roughly the same time as that ruler it seems.

6. Queen Ankhesenamun. Did her correspondence with the Hittites for a husband get her killed?

But who knows? Maybe all of the above died of natural causes. An abcessed tooth, an infective disease or child birth could easily end a woman's life in those days.

There are also minor queens known from the reign of Amenhotep III: Nebetnehat and Henut are known from inscriptions and have been (tentatively?) dated to the time of Amenhotep III.
Who knows what happened to them.

And I'm not so sure the mummies have been definitively dated to the Amarna period.

There had been some who speculated that the elder and younger lady may have actually belonged to the time of Amenhotep II (in whose tomb they were found). Although I have to admit that the lock of hair suggests to me that the elder lady may very well be Tiye. But is it Tiye I wife of Amenhotep III or Tiye II wife of Aye?

There is also the general Nakhtmin who may have been a son of Aye. The damage to the statue of him and his wife shows damnatio memoriae. Could the younger lady be the wife of Nakhtmin? She would have been in line to the throne with her husband if Nakhtmin was really the son of Aye.


And like you said: what if it's someone we just don't know existed?

I have wondered though what she must have done or threatened to be killed like that. The poor woman had her head bashed in if the reports are correct. And maybe stabbed? Would that all be done by one person - crime of passion - or would that take more than one assailant? And it is a brutal way to kill someone. It does sseem to show some hatred for her.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Even if narrowing it down to roughly the Amarna period leaves quite a few candidates for the murdered lady.


The lady was not murdered as best as I can see: the injuries appear post-mortem, probably by tomb robbers, IMO. The opinion given by Selim does not make sense: if the wounds were ante-mortem or even peri-mortem (occuring at the same time as death), there would be more broken bones within sinus cavities, not less. You can't fish out broken sinus cavity bones from a living human tissue without increasing the damage, but these bones can fall out once the body has skeletised and is then moved (probably several times).

anneke wrote:

And I'm not so sure the mummies have been definitively dated to the Amarna period.

There had been some who speculated that the elder and younger lady may have actually belonged to the time of Amenhotep II (in whose tomb they were found). Although I have to admit that the lock of hair suggests to me that the elder lady may very well be Tiye. But is it Tiye I wife of Amenhotep III or Tiye II wife of Aye?


There was only one Great Royal Wife named Tiye, the wife of Amenhotep III. Ay's wife was called 'Tey' and the glyphs of the names are not the same.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

every one who assesses the mummy disagrees if she was likely murdered or was damaged after death. i wish they could at least be consistant.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forensic Science is apparently another one of those disciplines where there's a "bit of room" for interpretation.

It's frustrating for one as myself. I don't have the background to make my own determination, so I'm stuck having to weigh the opinions of experts.


Quote:
There was only one Great Royal Wife named Tiye, the wife of Amenhotep III. Ay's wife was called 'Tey' and the glyphs of the names are not the same.

Thanks for that info neseret. I had heard (cannot remember where) that the names were the same but that the Tiye vs Tey distinction was made to keep the 2 individuals apart. But then again people would be quite adept at referring to people as Tiye I and Tiye II if that were the case Smile
Is the only difference an added set of double strokes at the end of Tiye's name?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

Quote:
There was only one Great Royal Wife named Tiye, the wife of Amenhotep III. Ay's wife was called 'Tey' and the glyphs of the names are not the same.

Thanks for that info neseret. I had heard (cannot remember where) that the names were the same but that the Tiye vs Tey distinction was made to keep the 2 individuals apart. But then again people would be quite adept at referring to people as Tiye I and Tiye II if that were the case Smile
Is the only difference an added set of double strokes at the end of Tiye's name?


That and the epithets attached to each queen, which are very different, in terms of sacral and political references.

Tiye:
    aAt nrt = 'great of fearsomeness'
    Xnmt nsw m Sw = 'the one who is united with the king who appears as Shu'
    wn.s m Sms Hm.k mi mAat Sms ra = 'She is in the company of your majesty like Ma'at in the company of Ra'
    Bnrt mrw.t = 'sweet of love'
    nDmt mrw.t = 'sweet of love'
    nbt rSwt Hnwt tAw nDm-ib = 'mistress of joy, lady of the sweet winds'
    mHt ah m mrw.t = 'the one who fills the palace with love'
    mHt ah m nfr.w = 'the one who fills the palace with beauty'
    wrt fAw Dsrt Xkr.w = ' great of offerings, splendid of ornaments'
    nbt imAt = 'Mistress of the imAt sceptre'
    wrt Hswt = 'great of praises'
    mwt nsw = 'mother of the king'
    mwt nTr = 'mother of the god'
    Hmt nsw = 'wife of the king'
    Hmt nsw wr.t = 'great wife of the king' (Great Royal Wife)
    Hmt nsw wrt mrt.f = 'great wife of the king whom he loves'
    Hnwt tAwy = 'Lady of the Two Lands'
    Hnwt rsy mHw = 'Lady of the south and the north'
    Hnwt tAw nb.w = 'Lady of all the Lands'
    r.t-pa.t = 'noblewoman'
    nb.t tAwy = 'mistress of the Two Lands'

Tey:
    wr.t Hswt = 'great of praises'
    Hmt nsw wr.t mrt.f = 'great wife of the king whom he loves'
    Hnwt rsy mHw = 'Lady of the south and the north'
    r.t-pa.t = 'noblewoman'
    nb.t tAwy = 'mistress of the Two Lands'

Interestingly, Tey is never referred to as simply /Hmt nsw wr.t/ as Tiye is, but always in relation to her king's affection for her. She's rather unique for that.

Because of the number and variety of epithets, one would not confuse Tey with Tiye in a text, no matter how fragmented, based upon the different glyphs of the name and the epithets.

Reference:

Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14. Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis.

HTH.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanx for explaining the differences no matter how confusing they could get.
one of tey's epithet's was noblewoman, does this mean she had some status before ay?
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure about Tey but wasn't Tiye a noblewoman of some sort before she became queen? She wasn't of royal blood?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats right. tiye's father had many titles and government posts.
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think many people get the wrong impression when they read that Amenhotep III "married a commoner". By referring to Tiye as a commoner, it is assumed she was of a poor class, swept up to live in the Royal Court. Actually, as has been said, her family was among the most prominent in ancient Egypt. She was, as a matter of fact, one of the most "noble" of noblewomen. Both of her parents had important roles in the Royal Court.
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly right, Osiris and Kyle. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
I think many people get the wrong impression when they read that Amenhotep III "married a commoner". By referring to Tiye as a commoner, it is assumed she was of a poor class, swept up to live in the Royal Court. Actually, as has been said, her family was among the most prominent in ancient Egypt. She was, as a matter of fact, one of the most "noble" of noblewomen. Both of her parents had important roles in the Royal Court.


I was one of those who have wrong impression!

I think the wrong impression came from the idea "She has no Egyptian royal blood", which doesn't exactly mean she came from a poor family.
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