Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

ct scans of "tiye" and "nefertiti" mummi

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:23 am    Post subject: ct scans of "tiye" and "nefertiti" mummi Reply with quote

here is a story about the ct scans on the kv 55 mummy, and the mummies claimed to be amarna queens tiye and nefertiti, mother and wife respectivley of the heretic pharoah akhenaten.

http://www.drhawass.com/blog/press-release-ct-scans-egyptian-mummies-valley-kings

he basically rejects the identification's of all three mummies, usually just saying that certain theores are untrue, but he never gave much info as to what the scans actually found. he just gives the main reasons used for identification and says why they are negligible.

he also states the kv55 mummy could be as old as 60, and that it and tutankhamun had doliocephalic skulls. i couldn't find out exactly what that means, but there is a reference here:

http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about25108.html
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is an article which suggests that the elder lady may be nefertiti instead.
it also gives a reason for not wanting to do dna studies, but they're doing those now.

http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocator/featured/nefertiti.htm
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this article is an argument by hawass about the burial of nefertiti in the v.o.k.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=31&art_id=qw1055326864675B221


this bit stood out:

"Hawas also said Nefertiti had been implicated in the assassination of her husband's successor, Smenkhkare, and was later in conflict with King Horemheb, who overthrew the monotheistic cult and erased all traces of it.

horemheb would therefore never have allowed her to be buried in the Valley Of The Kings," Hawas said."

does this info suggest nefertiti was around long enough to see horemheb ascend the throne?
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
this article is an argument by hawass about the burial of nefertiti in the v.o.k.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=31&art_id=qw1055326864675B221


this bit stood out:

"Hawas also said Nefertiti had been implicated in the assassination of her husband's successor, Smenkhkare, and was later in conflict with King Horemheb, who overthrew the monotheistic cult and erased all traces of it.

horemheb would therefore never have allowed her to be buried in the Valley Of The Kings," Hawas said."

does this info suggest nefertiti was around long enough to see horemheb ascend the throne?


No, it just means that Hawass is putting is own spin on a story of his own. There's actually no archaeological evidence for anything he states in this regard.

Now, as to the facts:

a) We have no evidence Smenkhkare was assassinated, for example: the KV 55 remains, thought to be his, for example, show no signs of violence (on the examination of these remains, see Derry 1931, Harrison 1966, and Filer 2000);

b) that Nefertiti was around (or even alive) at the time of his death (on this, see Allen 1994); and

c) Nefertiti was definitely not around during the reign of Horemheb, as she is no longer seen in any fashion after Year 12 of Akhenaten. Had she lived longer, scenes of Nefertiti surely would have appeared during the reign of Tutankhamun, as she would have been the queen mother of Ankhsenmaun (and possibly of Tutankhamun) and would have taken place of prominence in the royal iconography, not unlike how Tiye appears at Amarna during the reign of Akhenaten.

Finally, in regards to what Hawass said on his own website about the KV 55 remains, to wit:

...The most interesting finding is that the spine, which is slightly scoliotic, shows significant degenerative changes, suggesting an age of over 60.

I fail to see why a scoliotic spine, with degenerative changes, indicates an age of 60+. I have scoliosis, and have since I was in my teens, and would have shown the same results on my spine even in my 20's.

Most of the time, the causes of scoliosis are not known (idiopathic), but there are other conditions which can causes scoliosis in a normal individual even at a young age, such as functional scoliosis, a temporary condition when the spine is otherwise normal. The curvature occurs as the result of another problem. Examples include one leg being shorter than another from muscle spasms or from appendicitis. In structural scoliosis, the spine is not normal. The curvature is caused by another disease process such as a birth defect, muscular dystrophy, metabolic diseases, connective tissue disorders, or Marfan syndrome. (This happens to be the cause of my scoliosis: it is a congenital problem.)

It's very possible the KV 55 remains could fall into any of these categories, and still be that of a young person - one definitely under the age of 60.

It appears that Hawass desperately, it seems, wants to find for a later age at death so he can identify the KV 55 remains as those of Akhenaten.

As every other examination of the KV 55 remains states the remains are than of a young male, under the age of 30, and most likely between 20-25 years of age. relying upon a scoliosis condition alone as a means of determining age at death is extremely unreliable.

Reference:

Allen, J. 1994. Nefertiti and Smenkh-ka-re. Göttinger Miszellen 141: 7-17.

Derry, D. E. 1931. Notes on the Skeleton hitherto believed to be that of King Akhenaten. ASAE 31: 115-119.

Filer, J. 2000. The KV 55 body: the facts. Egyptian Archaeology 17(Autumn): 13-14.

Harrison, R. G. 1966. An Anatomical Examination of the Pharaonic Remains Purported to be Akhenaten. JEA 52: 95-119.

HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Neferseshat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
here is an article which suggests that the elder lady may be nefertiti instead.
it also gives a reason for not wanting to do dna studies, but they're doing those now.

http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocator/featured/nefertiti.htm


I have question with this!

I thought there was a DNA test for a lock of hair in a small box with Queen Tiye's name on it from King Tut's tomb and hair from the Elder lady, but in the article, according to James,
Quote:
The facts of the "Elder Woman" mummy don't match the facts known about Queen Tiye: Elder Woman was between 24 and 34 years old; Queen Tiye would have been over 40 when she died. [NOTE: Fletcher's team has reported that x-rays of the Elder Woman reveal an age range between 35 and 45.]


Does it mean the hair from King Tut doesn't belong Queen Tiye actually, which made the test result biased?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robson
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1009
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In her 2001 article on KMT Dr. Susan James doesn't prove the age of the Elder Lady's mummy. Her base is far less stronger than Joan Fletcher's theory, and is based only in the alleged similarity between Nefertiti 'Berlin' Bust and the Elder Lady, as shown below:

"In the case o Nefertiti, the process of appropriation is not yet complete. In a Summer 2001 article in the academic journal of Egyptology, KMT, Susan James presents the 'natural' equivalent to the 'Berlin' bust of Nefertiti. According to her argument, a mummy from the Cairo Museum, usually called the 'Elder Lady' and which has been associated to various historical figures since its excavation, can be identified as Nefertiti. James establishes her interpretation in particular with recourse to new technologies of photographic reconstruction, which allow 'the elegant bone structure, hyperelongated neck, (and) finely formed features'of the mummy to be compared with the facial characteristics of 'various surviving [sic] portrait heads, above all - of course - the 'Berlin' bust of Nefertiti. According to James, this method proves not only the identity of the 'Elder Lady', but also the naturalism, the 'veracity' of the portrait itself.

SOURCE: Breger, Claudia. "The 'Berlin' Nefertiti Bust: Imperial Fantasies in the Twentieth-Century German Archaeological Discourse". In: Regina Schulte. The Body of the Queen: Gender and Rule in the Courtly World, 1500-2000. Oxford and New York: Berghahn Books, 2006. Pg. 296
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nefersheshat,

there was a lock of hair inscribed with tiye's name, found in the tomb of tutankhamun. hair from the elder lady and the lock matched.
from this we can deduce that the elder lady is tiye.

but, there was a study on the cranial shapes of the elder lady and tuya, tiye's mother. based on cranial shape, they are not mother and daughter.
though i've never heard of how the shape of the head can determine whether your related to someone in modern medicine.

as for the elder lady being nefertiti, i find it silly. some things match, but the main point they are using is that she physically resembles the berlin bust.
a, she might not have looked like the bust, it being an idealised portrait or apprentice's model, and b, if your basing the resemblance as identifying the mummy alone, then that is a crock. the face of the younger lady was reconstructed at the time of the nefertiti theory, and the reconstruction also looked convincinly like the bust.

this is what the younger lady looked like. she has been shown as nefertiti, but there is a resemblance even if you take off the crown.

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/nefertiti/face/face.html
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Neferseshat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
there was a lock of hair inscribed with tiye's name, found in the tomb of tutankhamun. hair from the elder lady and the lock matched.
from this we can deduce that the elder lady is tiye.

but, there was a study on the cranial shapes of the elder lady and tuya, tiye's mother. based on cranial shape, they are not mother and daughter.
though i've never heard of how the shape of the head can determine whether your related to someone in modern medicine.


I think unless it proved the family have certain genetic disorder that may change cranial shapes, otherwise I don't see why such theory can surpass the dna testing. Smile

As to Nefertiti, I find Fletcher's theory is rather weak even she had conducted some examination on three mummies.

No offence, but now it seems to be a story-telling competition, especially Hawass.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robson
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1009
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I particularly believe that if the 'Elder Lady' and the owner of "Tiye's coffinette hair lock" are the same person, and the 'Elder Lady' is not Tjuya's daughter she can be rather another Great Royal Wife, and I think that could be Tey. I know that their names (Tiye and Tey) are written in slightly different ways, but if I am not wrong, the coffinette doesn't bear the title of "King's Mother" used by Tiye.

It would also could explain the similarity pointed by Susan James between Nefertiti and the 'Elder Lady', analogous to the similarity between Nefertiti and Tey in Aye's Amarna Tomb (niece-aunt of even daughter-mother relationship?). If Aye is depicted as king in Tutankhamun's Tomb wall, why couldn't Tey (now "Tiye II") logically be already the Great Royal Wife?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
why couldn't Tey (now "Tiye II") logically be already the Great Royal Wife?


i find it very interesting, about the name. i wonder if there is a poto of the inscription on the lock?

i don't get the sentence i quoted. she was great royal wife when tut was buried. ankhsenamun dissapears almost immediately. there is a ring with ankhsenamun's and ay's names on it though.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nefertum
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm presuming they've checked the blood type of the mummy which may or may not be Tiye?

As her parents' blood groups are known, I believe hers is or may be also. If the blood groups matched, I realise it wouldn't necessarily prove it was her, but if they didn't, I'd presume the identification could be eliminated.

The article from researchers at the University of Liverpool is here LINK.

The article is about trying to assess Tut's parentage. The part about Tiye is in the section titled The chief suspects, in the fourth paragraph of that section.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's all a bit suss to me. they don't have the blood from anyone related to tiye close enough to figure out what her's was. and im not too sure if blood tests can establish relations. they always do dna testing when they want paternity.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group