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Crown Prince Thutmose, older brother of Akhenaten
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:33 am    Post subject: Crown Prince Thutmose, older brother of Akhenaten Reply with quote

Akhenaten came to the throne, because his older brother Thutmose predeceased their father Amenhotep III.

Thutmose is shown in Memphis. When his pet cat Ta-Miu died, he provided her with a burial.
On the cat's sarcophagus Thutmose is mentioned as:
Crown Prince, Overseer of the Priests of Upper and Lower Egypt, High Priest of Ptah and sem-priest of Ptah.

Crown Prince Thutmose also officiated at the every first burial of an Apis bull at Memphis.

A whip was found in Thutankhamen's tomb belonging to Thutmose, crown Prince, Troop Commander.

Noone seems to know when Thutmose was born, or when he died.

Some genealogy sites claim that he had a son Ptahmose, who was to later follw him as high priest of Ptah. I haven't been able to find a single shred of evidence for that though!

I just think it's strange to see a crcown prince installed as high priest of Ptah. Was this a first attempt to diminish the power of the priesthood? By bringing it into the fold of the family?

How serious was the title? It could of course been completely honorific, but the titles of high priest and overseer of all the priests seem pretty serious appointents to me. Would they really install a small child in that position?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amenhotep III married Tiye in year 2.
Amenhotep IV / Akhenaten came to the throne somewhere between year 26 and year 38 (depending on how many years of coregency you assume).

Akhenaten and Nefertiti had children soon after coming to the throne.

So Thutmose had to have been born in the first half of Amenhotep's reign.

The burial of the apis bulls is not as useful as I first hoped.
One burial is at an unknown time during Amenhotep's reign; this one is associated to Thutmose. The next burial is during early akhenaten time period.
Bulls seem to live 15-20 years (some longer?). So that places the Thutmose Apis burial somewhere between 10 and 20 of Amenhotep (again depending on coregency Confused )
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making some simplifying assumptions:

As the older son, Thutmose could be born somehwere in yr 5-10.

I do believe in a co-regency, and I think Akhenaten became co-regent in year 30.
I wonder if this happened because of the death of his older brother the crown-prince.

There's also the marriage of Isis (before yr 30) and Sitamun (yr 30) to their father. What if they actually married Crown Prince Thutmose? This would make a lot more sense, and would nicely explain why they disappeared from the scene. May also explain why Akhenaten never married his sisters. This is a bit strange.

Does beg the question if Thutmose left any offspring.
It is not impossible he died as a child, but his life seems to point to a somewhat older age.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a mummy in KV35 of a young boy. Some have suggested that this is Crown Prince Thutmose.
This identification is based on his proximity to the mummy-boy of who is now identified as Tiye, based on a lock of hair from Tut's tomb.


The other possibility is that it is the mummy of Prince Webensennu, son of Amenhotep II, brother of Thutmosis IV, and hence great-uncle of our prince.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Crown Prince Thutmose, older brother of Akhenaten Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I just think it's strange to see a crcown prince installed as high priest of Ptah. Was this a first attempt to diminish the power of the priesthood? By bringing it into the fold of the family?

How serious was the title? It could of course been completely honorific, but the titles of high priest and overseer of all the priests seem pretty serious appointents to me. Would they really install a small child in that position?


Now you know me, I wouldn't change subjects easily... Wanted to reply on this one though. As far as I know it was custom to appoint high offices to royal princes. This would not have been different with religious offices, seeing how it was common practice for military leaders to have the status of a priest or a scribe as well. I doubt Egyptians really believed in the division of powers so to say. So if a prince was made general, why not a priest as well?

I must say it has to be for a reason - out of my reach (or at least I'm not sure of it) - that we don't find a lot of mentionings of earlier roles and titles for princes who actually became kings. My guess for the reason would've been it undermined their divine stature, but that's a long shot. Remains a fact we don't know a lot about previous titles to princes-become-pharaohs.

About princely titles we do know quite a bit though. The first example popping to mind is (again) prince Chaemwaset, favourite son and for a while crown-prince to Ramses II, bearing the titles of Sem-priest and High Priest of Ptah. Indeed a similar title to Thutmose's. My first impression in reading Thutmose's Memphite title was to see him as a king's deputy of the Northern region of Egypt. Something like a vizier, but very probably not with the same major influence. That was just a thought though. Fact is being High Priest of Ptah was regarded as one of the most important priestly titles in Ancient Egypt. The only ones I know of, coming close in prominence, were the obvious High Priesthood of Amon and the 'smaller' ones of Osiris and Ra.

Again on prince Thutmose I've found this:

Klaus Finneiser, affiliated with the Egyptian Museum of Berlin, Germany wrote:
We still have no sufficient fact about the life of prince Thutmose (Thutmosis) the son of Amenhotep II and brother of Akhenaten. From the lid of the sarcophagus of his cat (Cairo Museum CG 5003) published in "Goetter und Pharaonen" (Munich, 1978) nr. 28 we know his titles: chief of the priests of Upper and Lower Egypt, high priest of Ptah , Sem priest.

These functions are more or less nominal but we can suppose that a minimum age was necessary to hold this functions. Because of the fact that in the palace of Amenhotep III in Malqata no evidence of prince Thutmose exists, perhaps we can suppose that Thutmose was at that time already dead. But we neither know his date of death nor his burial place. However in his titles we can't see any tendency to the sun cult which Akhenaten later established.

By the way prince Thutmose played an important role in the history of animal burials. He took part at the erection of the first tomb for a Apis bull. Before Ramses II started burying Apis bulls in huge tombs (it later became the well known Serapeum north-east of the Djoser pyramid) some Apis bulls were buried in single tombs south-east the Serapeum. In one of the cult chapels A. Mariette (he excavated the Apis tombs) found a relief on which Amenhotep III and prince Thutmose are to be seen when offering in front of a Apis bull (A. Mariette, "Le Sêrapêum de Memphis I" (1882), p. 124-125). A part of that relief is now in the Egyptian collection of Munich (Munich GL 93; catalogue: "Schoenheit und Abglanz der Goettlichkeit, Kosmetik im Alten Aegypten" (1990), p. 59, nr. 4).

See also:
A. Dodson, in "Amarna Letters I" (1991), 27
J. Berlandini Keller in "Les Dossiers d'Archéologie 180" (1993), 27
A. Dodson in "KMT 6/1" (1995), 20

For other pieces with the name of prince Thutmose see:
A. Dodson in "JEA 76" (1995), p. 88 note 8
catalogue Cleveland: "Egypt's dazzling sun" (1992), p. 324, nr. 66

Very interesting is the detail that to the tomb equipment of Tutankhamun a whip grasp belongs which the name and titles of prince Thutmose mentioned together with the addition chief of the archers.

In addition to the above mentioned facts I can tell you that in 1996 the Egyptian Museum Berlin acquired a small bier (ca. 10 cm) with a figure of Thutmose lying on it. It is made of steatite. The short inscription calls Thutmose King's son and Sem priest (D. Wildung in "Antike Welt 1" (1997), p. 27-32). If prince Thutmose had become pharao Thutmose V perhaps it had never given pharao Akhenaten and queen Nefertiti and most of all no Amarna period.


But u already knew. Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had read about the parallels between Thutmosis and Khaemweset.
Khaemweset was high enough in the list if Princes that he may well have held the titles of Crown Prince and High Priest of Ptah simulaneously.

From the 18th -19th dynasty I don't know of ANY other examples though. Looking at the High Priests of Amen: all nobles. High Priests of Osiris: all nobles. High Priests of Min: all nobles. For as far as I know, there's not a royal son among them.

The custom of appointing royal sons to positions of Vizier and High Priest seems to have been very popular in the old Kingdom, and I believe again in the later periods, but not in the New Kingdom.

It would be nice to find Thutmose's tomb Cool
Some believe he may have been buried in Saqqara. Thebes is also a possibility, but Memphis makes a bit more sense.

His titles just make me wonder how long he lived, if he had children, was he any influence on his younger brother?
I know: all questions there really is no answer for Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly not if all we have from him is his cat.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We actually have quite a bit more than that.
There is a statue of the prince dressed as a sem-priest, kneeling and grinding corn.
In the descriptions he is described as having a sidelock. But this is actually a sidelock worn on a short wig. I don't think this is the sidelock of youth (usually worn with a sheven head), but sme other heardo.

This would have been what he looked like if he was depicted standing up


[This is NOT a picture of Tutmosis, but rather a priest showing the dress and hairstyle of the prince!]
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it seems to me that this depicts the prince as an adult. Although it may be adulthood by Egyptian standards Very Happy
Wasn't a man considered adult at 16? I thought I read that somewhere.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Akhenaten was so strange because his elder brother died? Maybe that hit him with sadness?
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke wrote:
Quote:
I do believe in a co-regency, and I think Akhenaten became co-regent in year 30. I wonder if this happened because of the death of his older brother the crown-prince.

I got the impression from a variety of sources that Thutmose died just before the 30-year jubilee and therefore, Amenhotep of Hapu was the stand-in for the heir. It must have been very sudden because Ahkenaten wasn't there as the heir. Maybe there was mourning time involved. Or he needed to be inaugurated somehow. This talk of Ahkenaten being so weird-looking they kept him in the background is basically nonsensical, considering the way he and Nefertiti were presented with such a splash, including all those temples in Karnak. And all the state-approved artwork which, no doubt, his father had a hand in.

If Ahkenaten was 14-17 years old in his year one, Thutmose must have been at least a few years older and certainly old enough to have married. The fact that he was working in the priesthood seems to denote some maturity, around twenty maybe, since he'd been there for a while. He was certainly old enough to have a wife. I do wonder about Sitamen being that person.

If he had a child what status would that child have?
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The child would be a prince.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so if ye had to put a bet on it ye would say he mad it to manhood?
Is there any inscriptions or anything mentioning or alluding to his death?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephaniep wrote:
... If he had a child what status would that child have?
Hathorhotep wrote:
The child would be a prince.

Contemporary documents / examples?

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just common sense is all that is required for this opinion, lutz.
The son of a king and a queen is considered to be a prince.
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