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Ankhesenamun - Tut's death etc.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have any real idea how old Ankhesenamon was at the time all of this intrigue was going on?

If it's true that she bore a child during the reign of her father, Akhenaton, then by my estimate, she would have had to have been in her teens at the time of his death. Add nine years for the reign of Tutankhamon and you have a woman who was at least in her mid twenties--possibly a bit older.

She had to have been older than Tutankhamon.

This girl grew up in the court of Akhenaton and was probably as good at playing power politics as the best of them.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chillie wrote:
How old were Thutmose 3's heirs when he was 22, Hatshepsut died, and he went off to battle in Meggido?


Like Anneke said, Thutmose III's son Amonemat was named Oveerseer of Cattle in year 24. Whether this was a real appointment or an honorary post for a very young prince, it's almost impossible to know.

The recent CT scans of Thutmose III's mummy confirmed what x-ray examinations had already suggested, that he was in his 50s when he died. Since he reigned for 54 years he must have been very young--possibly even an infant--when he became king. There is an inscription of Thutmose III's telling of how as a boy he was picked out of a crowd of priests by the Barque of Amon, and crowned king but this may not, shall we say, be an historically accurate rendition of how he came to rule. Hatshepsut told pretty much the same story.

Assuming Thutmose III reached sexual maturity at around age 13 and began having kids, the King's Eldest Son Amonemhat could have been anywhere from his late teens (assuming Thutmose III was around six at the time of his accession) with or considerably younger. If Thutmose III was a baby at the time of his accession his offspring would probably start to appear around year 14.

Most scholars believe that Amonemhat's mother was most likely his first attested Great Wife Sitiah daughter of the Royal Nurse Ipu. Other's have suggested that he may have been the son of Hatshepsut's daughter, the God's Wife, Nefrure.

There are problems with this filiation, Nefrure's never attested to as Great Wife, and her last attested date is year 11, but on the other hand, there's no absolute record of her death, she may appear, albeit unnamed, on the Red Chapel which was completed toward the end of her mother's reign and some monmuments which bear the name of Sitiah appear to have been originally inscribed for Nefrure.

I've always thought that given the need to produce an heir of unquestioned right to the throne that it would have been very much expected that the last pair of royals of breeding age (an endangered species at the time if ever there was one) i.e. Thutmose III and Nefrure would marry, but this of course is just speculation.

At any rate, there's no reason to think that Amonemhat wouldn't have already reached his majority or been reasonably close to it, with possibly (if he was indeed Nefrure's son and she was still alive) a powerful mother to guard his legacy, at the time his father, Thutmose III went to war.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
some monuments which bear the name of Sitiah appear to have been originally inscribed for Nefrure.


This is a stela where there is an outline of the ra glyph under the name:


(photo courtesy of Mr. D Lagall)

from: Queen Sitiah Page on my website.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Naunacht wrote:
some monuments which bear the name of Sitiah appear to have been originally inscribed for Nefrure.


This is a stela where there is an outline of the ra glyph under the name:


(photo courtesy of Mr. D Lagall)

from: Queen Sitiah Page on my website.


Thanks, Anneke, that's a nice clear picture of the alteration.

Don't want to hijack this thread by talking about my beloved early Thutmosids. Smile

I guess the point I was making was that Thutmose III had already done his dynastic duty by providing an heir to the throne by the time he first went to war either in year 23 or as some have suggested, even earlier, as junior co-regent, leading campaigns in Nubia (where he also went rhino hunting) and in Asia where he may have captured Gaza.

The dynastic situation that Tutankhamon faced was far more tenuous and it would be no knock on his personal courage if he did not lead his troops in person until he had the succession secured. It may even have been foolhardy of him to have done so except in the most dire emergency where his presence would be needed to shore up the resolve of the troops.
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chillie
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can't find it, where is this post from neseret that tells Tut was in country when he died?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chillie wrote:
i can't find it, where is this post from neseret that tells Tut was in country when he died?


I think it's referred to in the november 4th post:
Quote:
As for why Tutankhamun would not have gone to war: as I said before, his daybook and annals (that is, the schedule of what the king did on days of his reign), shows he did not leave Egypt (Johnson 1992). In short, Tutankhmun didn't go to war.


Actually in another thread she mentions:

chillie wrote:
Johnson, W. R. 1992. An Asiatic Battle Scene of Tutankhamun from Thebes: A Late Amarna Antecedent of the Ramesside Battle-Narrative Tradition. Ph.D (Unpublished). Chicago:The University of Chicago.

I think this is a University of Chicago dissertation (unpublished) and can be ordered through ProQuest Dissertation Service.


I thought you might like the link to the service where you can order the dissertation.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
Does anyone have any real idea how old Ankhesenamon was at the time all of this intrigue was going on?

If it's true that she bore a child during the reign of her father, Akhenaton, then by my estimate, she would have had to have been in her teens at the time of his death. Add nine years for the reign of Tutankhamon and you have a woman who was at least in her mid twenties--possibly a bit older.

She had to have been older than Tutankhamon.

This girl grew up in the court of Akhenaton and was probably as good at playing power politics as the best of them.


Smith and Redford (1976) after studying the occurrence patterns of the representations of the daughters at the /Gm-pA-itn/ temple at Karnak (before the move to Akhetaten at Amarna) determined to the best of their ability that Ankhsenapaaten/Ankhsenamun probably was born about Year 5 Akhenaten (Smith and Redford 1976: 85, n. 74).

This would have made her about 12 when her father died, and about 15/16 when Tutankhamun ascended the throne at 9 years of age. She would have been about 25/26 years old when Tutankhamun died and the "Egyptian Queen" correspondence was written.

Reference:

Smith, R. W. and D. B. Redford 1976. The Akhenaten Temple Project. Vol. I: Initial Discoveries. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.

HTH.
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chillie
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke... all i found was where neseret said that the records of tutankhamun's reign told that he did not leave the country, not the actual link or source.
I would very much like to read the annals of his reign. i had not known they were discovered
neseret or anneke, could either one of you give me the source for this please?
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject: Tut`s death Reply with quote

Chillie, I know your question was not directed at me, but as I was after those records,too, I have asked basically the same question and you might find neseret`s post on the thread "Palace Records" helpful. The records or annals are found in the Luxor Temple as inscriptions belonging to the representations of the Opet Festival and if you search for those depictions you might come across the records.
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chillie
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

really? are they complete records detailing his reign? how fascinating, wonderful! i will look into this at once! thank you!
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chillie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. I see that there is a possibility that I am onto something here.
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Queen-Seknofret
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no Hormeb married Nefertiti's sister Mutnodjmet it is believed that Ankhesenamun married Pharaoh Ay after King Tutankhamun's death
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neseret
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Queen-Seknofret wrote:
no Hormeb married Nefertiti's sister Mutnodjmet it is believed that Ankhesenamun married Pharaoh Ay after King Tutankhamun's death


Mutnedjmet was not Nefertiti's sister. The sister's name was Mutbenret, not Mutnedjmet (Reeves in Freed 1999).

As Reeves notes, there was a misreading of the glyphs of Mutbenret's name which gave an original reading of 'Mutnedjmet': this has now been corrected.

Reference:

Freed, R. E., Y. J. Markowitz, et al., Eds. 1999. Pharaohs of the Sun: Akhenaten: Nefertiti: Tutankhamen. Boston: Museum Fine Arts/Bulfinch Press/Little, Brown and Company.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How could this misreading happen?
Was it due to bad preservation of the inscriptions?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
How could this misreading happen?
Was it due to bad preservation of the inscriptions?


According to Dodson and Hilton (2001: 285, n. 104, "The nDm and bnr signs are very similar..." Here, Dodson is referring to M29 and M30, respectively - both meaning "sweet"



Recall that when carved, not all glyphs look as pristine as they do from my hiero software programme, and, if you look at the two glyphs, you can see the comparative shapes of the two signs. I can see why there could be a confusion.

The first challenge to the identifcation of Nefertiti's sister not being the same as Horemheb's queen was in

Martin, G. T. 1982. Queen Mutnedjmet at Memphis and el-Amarna. In L'Égyptologie en 1979: Axes prioritaires de recherches, 2: 275-278. Paris: Colloques internationaux du Centre national de la Recerche Scientifique.

HTH.
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