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Why god Ptah in Abu Simbel isn't shined from sunlight?
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Toth
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Detectiveoat13 wrote:
Thank you, some of my questions is clear enough, but who is that god, Ptah or Kek?

And if Ptah is the god of darkness please tell me some myth about the relationship between Ptah and darkness to support this thoery.

And because of many of your comments in this topic are full of errors, would you like to explain all of the correct stories to us?

Thank you again. Very Happy


Excuse me for "popping in", perhaps this may put things in their correct perspective (source: This site (Touregypt))

The Egyptians believed that before the world was formed, there was a watery mass of dark, directionless chaos. In this chaos lived the Ogdoad of Khmunu (Hermopolis), four frog gods and four snake goddesses of chaos. These deities were Nun and Naunet (water), Amun and Amaunet (invisibility), Heh and Hauhet (infinity) and Kek and Kauket (darkness). The chaos existed without the light, and thus Kek and Kauket came to represent this darkness. They also symbolized obscurity, the kind of obscurity that went with darkness, and night.
)

Then I have a simple question can you ID yourself as a Kemet-detective (show a license for instance)? Very Happy Laughing
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Detectiveoat13
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Here is my license. haha Laughing

Thank you for your answer Toth, Kek is the one from eight gods call The Ogdoad from Hermopolis's Creation Myth, and he confern with "Darkness"

But Ptah doesn't concern any relationship with darkness, why Ptah always in the dark in the Abu Simbel's Sanctuary?

It's interesting, isn't it?

and Osiris II please explain all of the correct FACT to us. Laughing
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Toth
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Detectiveoat13 wrote:


Here is my license. haha Laughing

Thank you for your answer Toth, Kek is the one from eight gods call The Ogdoad from Hermopolis's Creation Myth, and he confern with "Darkness"

But Ptah doesn't concern any relationship with darkness, why Ptah always in the dark in the Abu Simbel's Sanctuary?

It's interesting, isn't it?

and Osiris II please explain all of the correct FACT to us. Laughing


Hmm... very well.

The explanation , or answer to the question you have could be very simple: Human error while moving the temple (modern day human error)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is becoming a bit tiresome.
Instead of just posting questions and criticizing the answers you recieve Dectectiveoat13, I have a suggestion:
Do your OWN reading and research on the subject. Then, if you commit errors, the only person you can criticize would be yourself.
This constant asking of questions and telling us the answers are wrong is in EXTREMELY poor taste.
As far as I'm concerned, this subject is closed!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The statement to be read again and again the so called "Solar-Miracle" of Abu Simbel takes regarding to birth- and coronation-day of Ramses II. is without any basis. Both dates are unknown to us. We have no contemporary document from AE which submitted this data. It seems possible that there could be a connection to the dates of his Sed-festivals (see Aayko Eyma at "EEF" in January 2004).

Following Eberhard Otto in his article "Abu Simbel" ("Lexikon der Ägyptologie". - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1975. - Vol. I - Col. 26) the temple is oriented in that way that the rays of the rising sun on the days of equinox fall on the statues of Ptah, Amun-Ra, Ramses II. and Ra-Horachte in the inner sanctuary. Ptah of Memphis is also associated with Sokar, god of the netherworld and lord of Rosetau, the necropolis of Memphis. Maybe this coul be the reason why he is sitting in darkness.

Gerd Gelinsky gives in "Göttinger Miszellen" (009 - 1974 - pp.19-24) as dates the 20-th of October and the 20-th of February.

Christian Leitz in "Studien zur ägyptischen Astronomie" (Wiesbaden, 1991. - pp. 70-73 and 78 f) gives reasonings that the most probably dates were the 18-th of October and the 21-st of February, possibly also October 19-th and February 22-nd.

I have ordered "Rameses' Mysterious Encounter at Dawn : Rendezvous with the Sun in Three Acts" by J.K. Van der Haagen in "The Unesco Courier" (Vol.15, number 10, 1962, pp. 10-15) at Berlin State Library. This paper apparantly took measurements before the temple was moved. Will have access on Monday ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much, Lutz, for the extensive information on the subject.Especially the link between Ptah and Sokar in Memphis, which surprise me a bit, but it could have been a reason, if we definitely can exclude a modern day mistake.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
... the link between Ptah and Sokar in Memphis, which surprise me a bit, but it could have been a reason, ...

See, for example, Richard H. Wilkinson : The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. - London ; New York : Thames & Hudson Ltd., 2003. - Page 125 :



Greetings, Lutz.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Toth wrote:
... the link between Ptah and Sokar in Memphis, which surprise me a bit, but it could have been a reason, ...

See, for example, Richard H. Wilkinson : The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. - London ; New York : Thames & Hudson Ltd., 2003. - Page 125 :



Greetings, Lutz.



Dear Lutz,

Thanks again; my book on Gods, goddesses and religion has been ordered, but still has to arrive, so please apologize when at time I ask the obvious, BTW from what I read so far (before the above) was that he was a god of the sky, hence the surprise when you wrote - and I learned - about his links to Sokar.

Thanks again and greetings from Nederland (Die Niederlanden)

Richard, aka
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found (Google is your friend ! Wink ) an very interesting article by Manfred Bauer : "Verschiebung des Sonnenwunders von Abu Simbel durch die Versetzung der Tempel. Versuch einer Richtigstellung" (PDF, German).

Bauer was professor for measurement technology in Hamburg and as a student he was involved in the measurement work to the transfer of the temples from October 1965 to September 1966.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun to Illuminate Inner Sanctuary of Pharaoh's Temple
Lisa Krause
National Geographic News
(February 21, 2001)


For most of the year, the inner sanctum of the main temple at Abu Simbel is shrouded in darkness.

On two days, traditionally the anniversary of the birthday and coronation of pharaoh Ramses II, a shaft of sunlight pierces the gloom, illuminating statues of gods and the king in the temple's inner sanctum.

On February 22, a day celebrating the king's birthday and again on October 22, a day celebrating his coronation, sunlight illuminates seated statues of the sun gods Re-Horakhte and Amon-Re, as well as a statue of king Ramses II. The statues sit in the company of the Theban god of darkness, Ptah (who remains in the shadows all year).


Seated between Amen-Re to his left and Re-Harkhti to his right, the statue of Ramses II has greeted the rising sun twice a year for the past 3,200 years at Abu Simbel.

Photograph by Georg Gerster





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The spectacle—which has endured more than 3,200 years of Egyptian history—draws thousands of tourists to Abu Simbel to watch this ancient tribute to a pharaoh whose name is still known up and down the Nile Valley for his military exploits and monumental building projects.

Temple of a God-King

Ramses, who ruled Egypt for 66 years from 1270 to 1213 BC (about 50 years after the death of Tutankhamen, better known as King Tut) made a name for himself by battling the Hittites and the Syrians, Egypt's enemies to the north.

To celebrate his victories, Ramses erected monuments up and down the Nile with records of his achievements. He completed the hypostyle hall at Karnak (Thebes), and completed the funerary temple of his father, Seti I, at Luxor on the West Bank of the Nile.

The main temple at Abu Simbel, which Ramses ordered built near the border of Nubia and Upper Egypt, was dedicated to two sun gods, Amen-Re and Re-Horakhte. Standing 100 feet (33 meters) tall, the temple was carved into an already-standing sandstone mountain on the banks of the Nile.

Four colossal statues of Ramses, each 66 feet (22 meters) high, guard the entrance to the temple. Rising to the pharaoh's knees are smaller statues of family members: his mother; favorite wife, Nefertari; and son, Prince Amonherkhepshef.

Inside the temple, three connected halls extend 185 feet (56 meters) into the mountain. Images of the king's life and many achievements adorn the walls. A second temple at Abu Simbel is dedicated to Nefartari, who appears to have been Ramses' favorite wife.

"Abu Simbel was one of, if not the largest, rock-cut temples in Egypt," says Bruce Williams of the Oriental Institute of Chicago, "The rock was sacred because the Egyptians believed the deity was living inside the mountain."

Rock-cut temples may have been especially significant in ancient Egypt because the bulge in the otherwise flat land may have signified the location where the gods emerged from the Earth, says Williams.

Monumental Move

The Abu Simbel temples do not sit in their original location. Egypt's growing need for electricity prompted the controversial construction of the Aswan High Dam in the 1960s.The dam created Lake Nasser, and rising waters flooded a number of important archaeological sites along the banks of the Nile and displaced thousands of people who lived in the area.

The rising waters threatened the temples at Abu Simbel. Members of the United Nations Education, Science, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) orchestrated a massive construction project that moved the temple back 690 feet to its present site.

Piece by piece, craftsmen cut the temple, and the nearby temple of Nefertari into massive blocks of sandstone up to thirty tons. Both temples were carefully reassembled on a new steel and cement "mountain," safe from the water's edge.

The only result of the move is that the days of illumination have shifted by one—the illumination used to occur on February and October 21.

Festival of the Sun

That the days of illumination correspond to actual days in the life of Ramses is highly unlikely, says Leo Depuydt, an egyptologist at Brown University. "The Egyptian calendar was based on 365 days and while it was precise, the solar calendar is minutely different from year to year," says Depuydt, who adds that it is also difficult to know the precise date of the birth or coronation of Ramses II.

"Regardless of the alignment, if the temple faces East, the sun is going to shine in it twice a year," says Depuydt, who adds that "excitement is the key here—people are going to come to see the sun in the temple. But science is a different matter."




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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun to Illuminate Inner Sanctuary of Pharaoh's Temple
Lisa Krause
National Geographic News
(February 21, 2001)


For most of the year, the inner sanctum of the main temple at Abu Simbel is shrouded in darkness.

On two days, traditionally the anniversary of the birthday and coronation of pharaoh Ramses II, a shaft of sunlight pierces the gloom, illuminating statues of gods and the king in the temple's inner sanctum.

On February 22, a day celebrating the king's birthday and again on October 22, a day celebrating his coronation, sunlight illuminates seated statues of the sun gods Re-Horakhte and Amon-Re, as well as a statue of king Ramses II. The statues sit in the company of the Theban god of darkness, Ptah (who remains in the shadows all year).


Seated between Amen-Re to his left and Re-Harkhti to his right, the statue of Ramses II has greeted the rising sun twice a year for the past 3,200 years at Abu Simbel.

Photograph by Georg Gerster





More News
Adventure & Exploration

Archaeology & Paleontology

Kids News

Animals & Nature

Science & Technology

People & Culture

The Environment

Travel

National Geographic Channel



Special Series
Emerging Explorers

TravelWatch

National Geographic Out There

Oceans

Pulse of the Planet




The spectacle—which has endured more than 3,200 years of Egyptian history—draws thousands of tourists to Abu Simbel to watch this ancient tribute to a pharaoh whose name is still known up and down the Nile Valley for his military exploits and monumental building projects.

Temple of a God-King

Ramses, who ruled Egypt for 66 years from 1270 to 1213 BC (about 50 years after the death of Tutankhamen, better known as King Tut) made a name for himself by battling the Hittites and the Syrians, Egypt's enemies to the north.

To celebrate his victories, Ramses erected monuments up and down the Nile with records of his achievements. He completed the hypostyle hall at Karnak (Thebes), and completed the funerary temple of his father, Seti I, at Luxor on the West Bank of the Nile.

The main temple at Abu Simbel, which Ramses ordered built near the border of Nubia and Upper Egypt, was dedicated to two sun gods, Amen-Re and Re-Horakhte. Standing 100 feet (33 meters) tall, the temple was carved into an already-standing sandstone mountain on the banks of the Nile.

Four colossal statues of Ramses, each 66 feet (22 meters) high, guard the entrance to the temple. Rising to the pharaoh's knees are smaller statues of family members: his mother; favorite wife, Nefertari; and son, Prince Amonherkhepshef.

Inside the temple, three connected halls extend 185 feet (56 meters) into the mountain. Images of the king's life and many achievements adorn the walls. A second temple at Abu Simbel is dedicated to Nefartari, who appears to have been Ramses' favorite wife.

"Abu Simbel was one of, if not the largest, rock-cut temples in Egypt," says Bruce Williams of the Oriental Institute of Chicago, "The rock was sacred because the Egyptians believed the deity was living inside the mountain."

Rock-cut temples may have been especially significant in ancient Egypt because the bulge in the otherwise flat land may have signified the location where the gods emerged from the Earth, says Williams.

Monumental Move

The Abu Simbel temples do not sit in their original location. Egypt's growing need for electricity prompted the controversial construction of the Aswan High Dam in the 1960s.The dam created Lake Nasser, and rising waters flooded a number of important archaeological sites along the banks of the Nile and displaced thousands of people who lived in the area.

The rising waters threatened the temples at Abu Simbel. Members of the United Nations Education, Science, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) orchestrated a massive construction project that moved the temple back 690 feet to its present site.

Piece by piece, craftsmen cut the temple, and the nearby temple of Nefertari into massive blocks of sandstone up to thirty tons. Both temples were carefully reassembled on a new steel and cement "mountain," safe from the water's edge.

The only result of the move is that the days of illumination have shifted by one—the illumination used to occur on February and October 21.

Festival of the Sun

That the days of illumination correspond to actual days in the life of Ramses is highly unlikely, says Leo Depuydt, an egyptologist at Brown University. "The Egyptian calendar was based on 365 days and while it was precise, the solar calendar is minutely different from year to year," says Depuydt, who adds that it is also difficult to know the precise date of the birth or coronation of Ramses II.

"Regardless of the alignment, if the temple faces East, the sun is going to shine in it twice a year," says Depuydt, who adds that "excitement is the key here—people are going to come to see the sun in the temple. But science is a different matter."




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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the double post! I don't know what happened!
The computer gods must have been angry! Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Sorry for the double post! I don't know what happened!
The computer gods must have been angry! Laughing


Did you bring the right offers to the gods, Osiris III Wink Idea
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Sorry for the double post! I don't know what happened!
The computer gods must have been angry! Laughing

Maybe ... Because you did not chose the easyer way and risk problems with copyright when you copy and past a whole document?

Why you do not give simple the link : National Geographic News - February 21, 2001 - Lisa Krause - Sun to Illuminate Inner Sanctuary of Pharaoh's Temple
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Detectiveoat13
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone, and sorry for my silly questions.

But all of these data are highly clear to me about sunlight in Abu Simbel.

Many Thai people doubt like me and so I want to know the most possible and reasonable answer to explain them.

Thank you again. Very Happy
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