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kiya's origin's
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: kiya's origin's Reply with quote

on anneke's excellent site, she says that kiya's name was written in many ways-

Quote:
Second wife of Akhenaten.

Her name is found written as: kiya, kaia, kia and kiw
Kiya had a unique title only used by her: hemet mereryt aat - Great Beloved Wife.
She was however never called Great Royal Wife. She never wore a uraeus, and her name was never enclosed in a cartouche. On the other hand Kiya is known to have had a sunshade and was depicted with Akhnetane and a daughter. The latter seem to indicate she played an important role at court.

The origins of this Queen are rather mysterious. Some think she may have been the Mitanni Princess Tadukhepa, daughter of King Tushratta. Others have suggested she may be a daughter of Aye and Tey. But there is no evidence one way or the other.

Thought by some to be the mother of Tutankh(u)aten and possibly of Smenkhare.


i know the theories that she was a foreign princess are pretty popular, but the fact that her name is written in many forms, does this hint the name wasn't egyptian? if the egyptians didnt spell the name a similar way every time, doesn't this mean the name is quite foreign to them? i.e. yuya?
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno... the Egyptians seem to have been a bit flexible at times when it comes to spelling, so I'm not sure how firm that ground would be to support a "foreign princess" theory. (Here again, as as with so much about Amarna, the disparate theories far outnumber the few facts.)
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chillie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that the Pharaohs had many many wives and during the New Kingdom many came from foreign lands. Were any other of these foreign women given important places, or had their sons crowned king?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mutemwia was a mitanni princess, her son was Amenhotep III.
other than that, im not sure of any sons of foreign wives taking the throne.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
mutemwia was a mitanni princess, ...

Which proofs do you know for this statement?

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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people are actually fairly certain Mutemwia is not the Mitanni Princess? I believe the time frame does not work at all.

Mutemwia had her son Amenhotep (III) fairly early in the reign of Tuthmosis IV.

I'm going completely from memory here, so I could be wrong, but I thought that the Mitanni Princess may have gone by the name of Henuttempet or something like that???
I really wish I remembered where I read that Smile

For as far as Kiya being Tadukhipa: Tadukhipa was sent to Egypt to marry Amenhotep III I believe? And she later married Akhenaten (according to the Amarna letters??) But Kiya does not appear on the scene until later in the reign of Akhenaten, so why keep her hidden in the harem for so long and then create a position of prominence for her later on?
Unless she was a child bride? And she received a more honorable position at court once she grew up and had kids? But that's all speculation.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I'm going completely from memory here, so I could be wrong, but I thought that the Mitanni Princess may have gone by the name of Henuttempet or something like that???
I really wish I remembered where I read that Smile

I think you meant Gilukhepa, bride of Amenhotep III?
Princess (Ahmose-)Henutemipet is the closest one resembling a Henuttempet, I think:
probably a daughter of King Seqenenre Tao, possibly by Queen Ahhotep: click me.

Thutmose IV married an anonymous Mittani princess.
When he died, the diplomatic consequences of the marriage were irrelevant.
So Amenhotep III married a daughter of Shuttarna II of Mittani: Gilukhepa (RY 10?).
When Shuttarna II was succeeded by his son Tushratta, Amenhotep married his daughter: Tadukhepa.
And as Amenhotep III died, some scholars believe the diplomatic marriage was "continued" by Amenhotep IV.
Seeing how late Queen Kiya entered into public life however, the 2 are probably different persons.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
I think you meant Gilukhepa, bride of Amenhotep III? (...)
Thutmose IV married an anonymous Mittani princess.

Sorry, brain worked slowly... You know who Gilukhepa is, the subject was Thutmose's wife.
I didn't know the bride of Thutmose IV had been given a name.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i always read in books that mutemwia was a daughter of Artatama I of mitanni. but opinion seems to have changed, as her wikipedia page has too.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chillie wrote:
I know that the Pharaohs had many many wives and during the New Kingdom many came from foreign lands. Were any other of these foreign women given important places, or had their sons crowned king?


For as far as I know the answer to that is no. Most foreign princesses seem to have been minor wives (with the exception of Maathorneferure) and thier children are unknown.

Tuthmosis III - married 3 princesses Menwi, Menhet and Merti. They were were daughters of "Syrian" lords. No known children. The 3 ladies were buried together in Thebes.

Tuthmosis IV - Married a daughter of Artatama of Mitanni. Not sure what happened to her.

Amenhotep III
- married Gilukhepa of Mitanni early in his reign. Daughter of Shuttarna
- married Tadukhipa of Mitanni later in his reign. Daughter of Tushratta
- married a daughter of Kadashman-Enlil I of Babylon
- married a daughter of Tarkundharadu of Arzawa
(see f.i. Amenhotep III By David O'Connor, Eric H. Cline)
Tadukhipa later seems to have married Akhenaten.
Other than that, no trace of these ladies has been found and no children are known. (Unless Kiya really is Tadukhipa)
The princesses of Babylon and Arzawa were never even known by name.

Ramesses II
- married Maathorneferure of Hatti in ca year 34. She had a daughter Neferure. She seems to have lived in Pi-Ramesses as a great royal wife for a while and there is evidence she later lived in Ghurob (A palace complex in the Fayum)
- married a younger sister of Maathorneferure later in his reign. Her name is not known. (Some refer to her as Bentresh)

There is speculation that a Syrian princess named Sutaliya married either Ramesses II and had a son named Rammesses Siptah. Or that Sutaliya married a later king and was the mother of Pharaoh Siptah.

The Queen of Ramesses III named Isis ta-Habdjilat (I have seen other spellings as well) was a daughter of a lady named Habdjilat. This women is sometimes speculated to be a Syrian woman who may or may not have been married to Sethnakht.
I cannot remember where I saw this theory (it may be Grajetski). And I don't think Habdjilat's marriage to Sethnakht is generally accepted as fact.

Considering the number of diplomatic marriages it makes one wonder if Tutankhamen and Horemheb ever took any foreign women as brides. It seemed that peace treaties were sometimes cemented by one of these marriages.

During the New Kingdom this was apparently a 1 way street. Egyptian princesses were never married off to foreign kings.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i always read in books that mutemwia was a daughter of Artatama I of mitanni. but opinion seems to have changed, as her wikipedia page has too.


In the article "Enigmatic Kiya" by Kramer (in a Delta Man in Yebu) there is mention of a major-domo (steward?) named Bengay. He was steward of the domain of the noble lady of Naharin (aa en per ta shepset naharin).
In 1997 van Dijk suggested that Bengay was the steward of a lady of Naharin (Mitanni), but that her name is Henutempet as mentioned on a funerary cone of Bengay. And this lady is thought to be contemporary to Tuthmosis IV by some.

Kiya was referred to as ta shepset (noble lady) according to a docket from year 11 (from Amarna). No mention of Naharin for as far as we know, Some think this may just be short for "noble lady from Naharin" though. And hence the idea that Kiya could be from Naharin (Mitanni).
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article by van Dijk can be read through google books:
Essays on Egypt etc

The claim here is rather interesting! Van Dijk suggests that we actually have the mummy of the Mitanni daughter of Artatama.
Hers would be the mummy usually identified as Ahmose-Henuttempet
See Max Miller's page:
http://members.tripod.com/anubis4_2000/17A.htm#Ahmose-Hentempet

This mummy id usually identified as a daughter of Tao II, but van Dijk argues that this woman's name was not written in a cartouche and is the wife of Tuthmosis IV instead.

If true, then the foreign royal wives were buried according to Egyptian beliefs.

If this really is the daughter of Artatama then - considering her age at death - she must have lived well into the reign of Amenhotep III. She would have been around when Gilukhepa was sent as a bride to Amenhotep.
Boggles the mind to wonder what her life would have been like?
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chillie
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't the highest status go to women from prominent [/i]Egyptian families?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you mean highest status at the Egyptian royal court?

I would assume that the highest status would be whomever was closest associated with the king. That would be his mother, wife or possibly daughter.

The highest status among the wives? Not sure how that was established.
I don't know for instance why Tiy was raised above all others by Amenhotep III, or why Satiah was important for a while under Tuthmosis III.

Or how Nefertari and Isetnofret managed to work their way to the top with Ramesses II. Some produced sons, but not all did I think.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="anneke"
The claim here is rather interesting! Van Dijk suggests that we actually have the mummy of the Mitanni daughter of Artatama.
Hers would be the mummy usually identified as Ahmose-Henuttempet

This mummy id usually identified as a daughter of Tao II, but van Dijk argues that this woman's name was not written in a cartouche and is the wife of Tuthmosis IV instead.
[/quote]

i would think that they wouldnt agree with the mummy's identity if it didnt date to before tuthmose IV's time. they would have to date the mummy way before thutmose IV, as ahmose hentempet would definently have been dead by tuthmose III's reign.

i do think it unusual that he comments her name isnt in a cartouche, so therefore she is a minor wife. when were queens names included in cartouches? and was it only the chief queen that got that treatment, or were all wives of the king allowed to use cartouches at some point?
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