Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Set vs Horus--Who Really Was Evil?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sitesa
Banned


Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 160
Location: Alexandria------Arsinoe Sarione Ptolemy

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Set vs Horus--Who Really Was Evil? Reply with quote

In the myths of Isis and Osiris...Set is considered the evil one. BUT I contest that at the point When Horus killed his mother cause she forgave her brother, that Horus became worse than the one he was opposed to.

What do you think?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Set vs Horus--Who Really Was Evil? Reply with quote

Sitesa wrote:
In the myths of Isis and Osiris...Set is considered the evil one. BUT I contest that at the point When Horus killed his mother cause she forgave her brother, that Horus became worse than the one he was opposed to.

What do you think?


Idea Horus killed Seth. Horus never killed his mother Isis.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sitesa
Banned


Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 160
Location: Alexandria------Arsinoe Sarione Ptolemy

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on whether you think decapitation kills or not.

When Horus became a young man, he fought his uncle Set. But Isis took pity on Set and allowed him to escape. Angry at his mother, Horus cut off her head. Thoth, the god of magic and wisdom, changed the severed head into a cow's head and reattached it to Isis's body. Some ancient statues and paintings of the goddess show her with a cow's head, and she is often linked to the goddess Hathor. Eventually, Isis went to live with Osiris in the underworld.

Set didn't die
In the famous Myth of Osiris he killed his brother Osiris and was sentenced to pull Re's solar barg across the sky every day - forever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to really look around for this one. In most of the Isis/Osiris myths I don't think Isis is ever killed.

I found a mention in Papyrus Beatty I where there is mention of Horus decapitating Isis. But the whole point of that myth seems to be to explain how Isis would have ended up with a cow's head. And in the end she does not die.

Then again there are so many versions of this myth and there are different "endings". In some versions Seth's powers are stripped but he is left alive, while in others he is burned (in the form of an animal?).

I think it's pretty obvious Horus is meant to be the "good guy" flaws and weaknesses and all.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just in case an interested reader wants to see one of the version of the myth:
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/horus_and_seth.htm

In this version Horus does (as my sister-in-law would say) "involuntarily remove his mother's head"

There are different versions of the myth however. In some Horus is a brother of Isis, Nephtys, Seth and Osiris and a son of Hathor. In others Horus is the son of Osiris and Isis. I guess the myth is so old that there are multiple versions.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Neferseshat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard of another version that Horus......raped his mother Isis, but I have no idea what this could mean.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked I found that in Cleopatra and Rome By Diana E. E. Kleiner on google books (p167).
She retaliated by cutting his hands off.
LOL No Lorena Bobbit I guess ...

The version I had heard is that Seth tries to *** Horus, but Horus manages to thwart Seth and (with the help of Isis) take revenge.

I know they had some 3000 years to change the story, but sheesh there are quite a few versions out there.

Taking the very worst interpretations together Horus isn't exactly "mommy's sweet little boy"!
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shemsu Sesen
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it helps to consider the values of the culture and the period. We would view marrying your sister as being, well, gross, but it was obviously considered necessary within the context of dynastic politics.

Most cultures could be pretty brutal back then (unlike today, snark snark..), and killing a family member, even a beloved family member, for an egregious wrong was sometimes required. To allow a loved one to "one up" an authority figure could be interpreted as a weakness that could lead to a dangerous state of instability within the community. I would expect that on the cosmic level the ante is upped even further.

And keep in mind that myths tell a story, not a history. On the one hand they are meant to explain the unexplainable. But on the more dramatic level they are symbolic stories meant to convey moral lessons, like fables or parables. Anneke made this point much better than I could, so I defer!
_________________
Shemsu Sesen
emhotep.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should also be noted that there a several versions of Horus

Horus the Elder - Brother of Isis and Osiris. Son of Atum (or Re). Sometimes thought to be the son of Hathor. The four sons of Horus are the sons of this version of Horus and Isis may be their mother.
Hence the relationship with Isis maybe?

Horus the Behdedite - a version of Horus the Elder. Depicted as a winged sun disk

Horus, son of Isis (Harsiesis) is the son of Isis and Osiris.

Horus in the Horizon (Haremakhet) is associated with the Sphinx.

There are supposedly many more...

The different versions may have to do with the mythologies merging and diverging.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Neferseshat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

The version I had heard is that Seth tries to *** Horus...


And that's how Thoth was born. Shocked
(Pinch, G., Egyptian Mythology, 2002, pp.193)

I always thought Thoth came into beign from Ra's saliva...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Had not heard that one.
I had always read Thoth may have been one of those self engendered gods? He kinda created himself?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferseshat wrote:
And that's how Thoth was born. Shocked
(Pinch, G., Egyptian Mythology, 2002, pp.193)


Sprang forth (birthed) from his head, I believe
_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
Sprang forth (birthed) from his head, I believe


his = Seth's head
_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Neferseshat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may read the "came into being from Ra's saliva" thing from "Egyptian Mythology" by Aude Gros de Beler(2004)......but I cannot find the exact page, I'll search my previous posts.

In Pinch, Thoth "came from the lips of Ra"(pp.209), but she also said in some versions, Thoth was sprung from Seth's skull after he swallowed Horus's fluid (the sprung from skull part reminds me of Athena).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Neferseshat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferseshat wrote:
I may read the "came into being from Ra's saliva" thing from "Egyptian Mythology" by Aude Gros de Beler(2004)......but I cannot find the exact page, I'll search my previous posts.


I FINALLY found the page, it's neither Ra nor Thoth, but goddess of Sais - Neith.

Quote:
One day, as Re cannot find his mother, he starts to cry:" The men came into existence through his tears." After having found her, he started to salivate:"the gods came to existence through his saliva."

Another day, it's Neith who spits in the Nun. Disgusted, the gods repel the spittle:"then it became snake a hundred cubits long, who has called Apophis."

Later, Thoth appears:"he came out of the heart of Ra in a moment of sadness."
(pp.64)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group