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Book about Maia(Zivie) - connection to Meritaten
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sothis wrote:
I do have some problems with the equation Maya=Meritaton=Regent.
First, when the name Mayati appears in one or more Amarna letters and it refers to Meritaton, the change is probably due to the difficulty of foreigners to pronounce/write an Egyptian name. As seen from the name Neb-Maat-Re and the transcription Nimmuriya (amongst many others), not only the vowels appear differently but also consonants are "swallowed". So I could imagine that the "r" and "n" in "Meritaton" fell victim to the transcription. But why should this happen in an Egyptian tomb, where certainly much attention was paid to the correct spelling, given the importance of names? So I think that Mayat(i) and Meritaton are two different names. Maybe her name was just the female equivalent to Maya as used for males in that time. Strange, though, why sometimes a "t" is added and sometimes not.

I don't see that as a major problem. Tutankhuaten and Ankehsenpaaten changed their names to Tutankhamen and Ankhesenamen. So Meritaten could have easily changed her name as well. And maybe she liked Maia(ti) better than Meritamen. Or maybe she was just not as willing to move all the way to an Amun name. Who knows?

sothis wrote:
The conclusion that Meritaton was the king before Tut is not compelling, either. This king was named Nefer-Neferu-Aton and we do not yet know who really was behind this name.

Actually the idea that Meritaten was Neferneferuaten was already suggested as a possibility by Allen and Dodson.

I think the idea that Neferneferuaten was female (and distinct from Smenkhare) is now somewhat accepted by quite a few. The exact identity of this female ruler / possibly regent has ranged from Meritaten to Nefertiti to Neferneferuaten-tasherit.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully appreciate that it is far too much to translate full passages of the book and then post them here, nobody would expect this.
Still, if anyone who has read this book could share the main findings and suggestions with us I think everyone will be grateful.

I have only expressed my own opinion to the findings I have read of so far.
The fact that I am as yet reluctant to follow it all does not mean that I want to convince anyone of anything or want to be convinced. It is all about exchange of knowledge and opinions.
I really appreciate that Zivie makes careful suggestions. He is obviously not one who jumps to conclusions, which would not be helpful at all.
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christphe
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

since i need time to give informations and it's going to be hard for me to translate since i'm not english and not an egyptologist, i think i can give a few more info.
First Maia is depicted with no family and like alway with Akhenaten succession the impression from the tomb is "how to show without lying but without telling"
On many reliefs she is showing with the chebhiou collars and the modius (once orned with two sollars?)
Her titles are those of "wet nurse" and as Zivie insist it is not a Nany, but a very important lady who act as the mother of the king like goodness Hator.
The tomb is really big and only dedicated to maia. The impression is that the first room with the relief we all know is a coronation room with Maia seated on the king throne (the sema- taouy is part of the chair and not just for tut feet).6 nobles are behind them (two are single out, Ay, Hoemheb?)
The almost lost opposite relief has the 12 nobles (two of them are single out with typical septers and it doesn't ask imagination to see Ay and Horemheb), before them stand (very big) Tut as an adult in the same posture than is gold throne (septers and nubian wig), and standing before him Maia (bigger than the nobles but smaller than the Pharao) unfortunatly the text is lost.
Than we have Maia in front of osiris, isis, nephtis and in a typical hard to follow egyptian mind, she plays the role of isis adressing to osiris as the deceaded King. THe text made it very clear that she says "our horus" like he is her kid. But much more she claims that she acted as dicted by Tut in "apeasing the god's hearts and maintaining the sanctuary stability" in other words she acted like a regent.
Another impression is that their is a emphasis on the erotical aspect of Maia body. In many relief she is depicted like the amarna princess bust from the louvre. She is almost nude and acompaining text insist on her beauty.
Another relief shows her in front 8 young women (like in kerouef tomb) on of them is a princess.
It is mentioned that she had a lot of possessions and her intendant his Rahotep. In fact i think she is said to be superior of the harim (as we know Akhim is an important city for the harem institution and for Tut)

The Meryaton connection is hypothetic. On the well known reliefs from the amarna royal tomb the unknown kid is taken care by a lady identified as Meryaton (J Allen reference) she is wearing no crown at all.
Than we have Mayati (iaty to be understood as aton).
Whoever she was, she is depiceted as a lady seating on the royal throne, honored by the 12 nobles, acting as regent... She wa not only the kind tut beloved nany.
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christphe
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://history.memphis.edu/murnane/

this is the link to find J allen contribution the the Amarna succession[/url]
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, happy new year to everybody!

And many thanks to Christphe for providing so much and really interesting information.

As Maia seems to have been Superior of the Harim, is there any hint that gives a link to the town of Akhmim? If there is, it would be interesting because then she might be linked to the familiy of Aye.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anybody know if any fragments of human remains or of grave goods have been found among the rubble? What about seals or anything that would give a date?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Does anybody know if any fragments of human remains or of grave goods have been found among the rubble? What about seals or anything that would give a date?

Was`nt there a mummy of a lion ? Idea

Here is a picture of an relief from the tomb of Maia from Alan Zivie`s " The Lost Tombs of Saqqara " (Edition cara.cara, 2007), page 79 :



I think the inscription gives name and title. Maybe someone could translate ?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Aset
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Quote:
I think the inscription gives name and title
Wink



mna.t-nsw Sd.t nb ta.wi miAt (?) mAa.t xrw
The wet nurse of the king who fed the Lord of the Two Lands, Maiat (?), justified (lit. 'true of voice')



mna.t Sd.t HqA miAt (?)
The wet nurse who fed the ruler, Maiat (?)

the title (source TLA):
mna.t - nurse; reference: Jones, Titles OK, no. 1605

Aset
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm puzzled by the way the name is written.
The "t" seems to be associate with the "m".

I had expected the "t" in Maiat to appear at the end.

Are the "t" sounds sometimes silent? (And hence the Maia)

I at first thought it would be Mutia, but anything with "Mut" is written with another glyph.

Any thoughts?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aset wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Quote:
I think the inscription gives name and title
Wink

With cheese one catches mice, with hieroglyphics Aset! Laughing Thanks for that ! Smile

Greetings, Lutz.
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christphe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[img]

from the book[/img]
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christphe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

opposite wall

[img][/img]
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for those!

The image where Maia is wearing the modius is very interesting indeed.

Are there any other instances where a non-royal lady wears one? I can't remember seeing an instance of a non-royal lady wearing a modius, but that doesn't mean there isn't one Very Happy
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christphe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

striking relief of Maļa echoing the vision of Nefertiti as seen in Ay tomb or the louvre bust

[img][/img]
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
... The image where Maia is wearing the modius is very interesting indeed.

Are there any other instances where a non-royal lady wears one? ...

Wearing a modius is typical for women connected with the royal harim. Pictures from the tomb of Cheruef at Thebes (18. Dynasty, Amenhotep III. & IV.) and the rooms in the so called "High Gate" at Medineth Habu (20. Dynasty, Ramses III.) come to my mind, for example.

Greetings, Lutz.
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