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Book about Maia(Zivie) - connection to Meritaten
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chillie
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:


And speaking of Hawass: I'm surprised he has not had anything to say about this.


I second your astonishment, Anneke
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christphe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is the link to order the book (only in french)

http://www.hypogees.org/visuels/livres/bon_de_souscription.pdf
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Robson
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

And speaking of Hawass: I'm surprised he has not had anything to say about this.


Maybe because he doesn't feel comfortable to feature in a circus where he is not the only show man.... Wink
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

christphe wrote:
here is the link to order the book (only in french)

http://www.hypogees.org/visuels/livres/bon_de_souscription.pdf


Thanks for that info christphe.


Last edited by anneke on Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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christphe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
christphe wrote:
here is the link to order the book (only in french)

http://www.hypogees.org/visuels/livres/bon_de_souscription.pdf


Thanks for that info christphe.


hope you can read this and calm down some unexpected passion surrending this issue.
As he himself (zivie) admit the Meriaton/maia is an hypothesis and i must say it's not very strong.
But what is strong and obvious is the regency/mentor/almost mother/ fonction this unknown but important lady played for Tut.
What surprises me the most is the wet nurse title obsession of some of the forum member.
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chillie
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I would not say that needing to determine the exact roll of Maia is"obsession" for one, as it is certainly one of the most important facts concerning this issue, which would make all the difference. Also, it would be straight up bizarre for a crown princess to demote herself to a wet nurse.

Also, the theory is pretty wild that Maia and Mayati are one in the same. If there is even one reference to Maia before Akhenaten died, then this theory is shot in the foot.

You'll find a great deal of this "obsession" when it comes to educated, passionate people debating mysteries of AE, so I hope you aren't too troubled...
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
There is not the slightest reason to identify her with Meritaten who was a King's Daughter, a King's Great Wife, and not impossibly a King.

Alain Zivie seems to disagree with you ...


Yes he does, and God knows I don't have credentials to match his. On the other hand Amarna does seem to inspire even the soberest of scholars to flights of fancy. A King's daughter, King's Great Wife giving up those high titles AND her name to assume a commoner's identity doesn't strike me as very logical.

Surely it is much more likely that Maia was an important lady of court given the high rank of wet nurse to the King's Son Tutankhaten and not unnaturally honored by her royal fosterling in later life.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
... Amarna does seem to inspire even the soberest of scholars to flights of fancy. A King's daughter, King's Great Wife giving up those high titles AND her name to assume a commoner's identity doesn't strike me as very logical.

Surely it is much more likely that Maia was an important lady of court given the high rank of wet nurse to the King's Son Tutankhaten and not unnaturally honored by her royal fosterling in later life.

Totally agree with you and could not say better ... Applause

Greetings, Lutz.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy For the record: I actually agree with you as well.

But I am still curious what made Zivie take this flight of fancy. And flight of fancy may very well be the right way to think about it.

Something that Christphe said made think about something as well. Could we be (or maybe I should say "could I be") misled by the title of King's nurse?

In more modern history that's could be some lower class woman who just feeds the baby. Maybe that position at court held a lot more prestige than we know?

Queen Satiah (Tuthmosis III) was the daughter of a royal nurse Ipy. Rai, the nurse of Ahmose Nefertari was found in the cache with other royals. Sitre-In the nurse of Hatshepsut was a lady with a tomb in the Valley of the Kings.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evidence indicates that royal 'wet nurses' like royal 'tutors' were very important people, high officials or their ladies.

Senenmut, Hatshepsut's lord high everything, was tremendously proud of his role as tutor to the princess Neferure. Aye's wife Tey was of course Nefertiti's nurse. The father and son tutors of the sons of Amenhotep II and Thutmose IV proudly showed off their royal pupils in expensive tombs. A wet-nurse was definitely much more than a servant.
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chillie
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger: I disagree with you, though not to disparage your opinion or the positions of these people. They were persons in positions of great honor, and when I refer to them as servants it is not disrespectfully. However, in the point of view of a royal daughter, crown princess, Pharaoh, etc... such persons were servants, to them. All persons in AE who were not royal born were servants of the crown, and that is how I have defined them for this one subject. We are dealing with a society that perceived its rulers as god-like, if not gods.

The idea that a person in close line for the throne would trade their position, titles, and lofty status as the daughter of Aten to become a place servant, how ever high and respected, is to me unimaginable.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with you. The King's Daughter, King's Wife Meritaten would certainly NOT give up that status for anything. She was, after all, semi-divine!

And I see your point about 'servants' too. To take a modern example the Queen of England's Master of the Household and her footman are both 'servants' in a sense but certainly have VERY different status at court!
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to talk a bit about the possible timeframe in which Maia`s tomb was probably built.
The decoration is held in a very traditional style, nothing "Amarnan" about it. Tut is shown as crowned king already, but the scene where he sits on Maia`s lap and she possibly on a throne, maybe acting as his regent, point to a start time (at least for the decoration) of some time soon after Tut`s coronation. On the other hand, there does not seem to be any reference to Tut being deceased, so this would mean that the whole tomb would have been finished in the 9 or 10 years of his reign. As the cutting of the chambers (by the way, how many chambers does the tomb have?) would only have been ordered after Tut`s coronation when he or she was in a position to order the building of such a lavish tomb, this would have been really an impressive achievement.
That begs the question why Tut could not build a proper tomb in the same timeframe for himself? It is really ironical to see in what kind of small, inappropriate tomb he himself ended up.

Or is my assumption incorrect and the building works on Maia`s tomb went on until well after Tut`s death and his death simply wasn`t mentioned in it? Any thoughts on this?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: the question of Tutankhamun's tomb--

The tomb in which his mummy was found was one, probably for a noble, that was pressed into royal service because of his untimely death. It is theorized that he did start a tomb for him-self, one which was usurped by Aye.

The style of Maia's tomb would be considered "Post Amarna", having a return to traditional forms, but with the Amarna life-like look still present in the features of the subjects.

In the breast-feeding scene, the so-called throne on which Maia sits is only an elaborate chair, not a throne.
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christphe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
I would like to talk a bit about the possible timeframe in which Maia`s tomb was probably built.
The decoration is held in a very traditional style, nothing "Amarnan" about it. Tut is shown as crowned king already, but the scene where he sits on Maia`s lap and she possibly on a throne, maybe acting as his regent, point to a start time (at least for the decoration) of some time soon after Tut`s coronation. On the other hand, there does not seem to be any reference to Tut being deceased, so this would mean that the whole tomb would have been finished in the 9 or 10 years of his reign. As the cutting of the chambers (by the way, how many chambers does the tomb have?) would only have been ordered after Tut`s coronation when he or she was in a position to order the building of such a lavish tomb, this would have been really an impressive achievement.
That begs the question why Tut could not build a proper tomb in the same timeframe for himself? It is really ironical to see in what kind of small, inappropriate tomb he himself ended up.

Or is my assumption incorrect and the building works on Maia`s tomb went on until well after Tut`s death and his death simply wasn`t mentioned in it? Any thoughts on this?


Level 0

room 1: 4x2m
room 2: 4.5x2,5
room 3: 8x8,2

level -1

room 1 : 4x4
room 2 : 3x2
room 3 : 4,3x 3,55 (plus two small storage 2,10x1,70

from the description it is obvious that the tomb dates from tut reign and there are sign of proscription. Level -1 has no decoration.
This tomb is similar in shape to the one of Vizir Aperia.
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