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Book about Maia(Zivie) - connection to Meritaten
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christphe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sending the great drawing. It really is a big tomb. I did not know it was built on two levels. But I think some other tombs in Saqqara belonging to high officials such as Horemheb`s also consist of two levels, so it would fit in really well.
You say that there are proscriptions. Can you say what was being proscribed, perhaps gods` names, or maybe mutilations of images?
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chillie
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Sothis! I have two ideas about your very interesting question, why Tutankhamun's wet nurse had a better tomb.

First possibility: if she had no husband, she may have ordered it for herself

Second possibility: Tutankhamun was just like most other kings, who began work once they were crowned. On his death, Vizier Ay "switched" tombs, placing Tutankhamun into a tomb in progress meant for a lesser official (possibly the vizier himself). Ay later appropriated Tutankhamun's real tomb for himself.

Third possibility (and my least favorite, least likely, according to me): He was young and didn't think he needed to begin yet (unlikely considering the high number of royal deaths witnessed by him in his childhood), or he was "too busy" restoring Egypt
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christphe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Thanks for sending the great drawing. It really is a big tomb. I did not know it was built on two levels. But I think some other tombs in Saqqara belonging to high officials such as Horemheb`s also consist of two levels, so it would fit in really well.
You say that there are proscriptions. Can you say what was being proscribed, perhaps gods` names, or maybe mutilations of images?


i'v been misunderstood, there are no traces of proscription. Tut and others are intact.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a new book by Hawass (don`t have but a guy mentioned it in another forum) were he also seems to talk in short about the DNA results :

"Inside The Egyptian Museum" - The New Official Guide to the Egyptian Museum in Cairo authorised by the Supreme Council of Antiquities. - London : Heritage World Press Ltd., Dezember 2009. - ISBN-10 : 1907397000. - ISBN-13 : 978-1907397004. - 240 pages.

http://www.heritageworldpress.com/our-books/inside-the-egyptian-museum-with-zahi-hawass/

On page 25 :
Quote:
"... We have now identified the mummy of Queen Tiye, whose body had remained in the tomb of Amenhotep II since its discovery, and found that the ‘Younger Lady’, also found in the tomb of Amenhotep II, was the mother of Tutankhamun. ..."

He also says that the eldest of the two foetuses from KV 62 was the daughter of Tutankhamen. They could get no results from the younger foetus.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz, are you sure that Zahi is talking here about DNA-test results or rather the results of scanning and x-raying? I ask because I remember having seen the examination of these mummies in one of his famous docus, but I don`t know the exact title anymore.
In this docu he provides the very results you quoted: elder lady=Queen Tiye, Younger Lady=Tut`s mother. Not a word of DNA-testing though. And because he could not work out who the younger lady was (apart from being Tut`s mum), he labelled her Kiya according to his favourite theory. Scientific investigation a la Hawass.
Anyway, I have decided not to trust his occasional remarks, even if they come in writing. We must wait til one day (hopefully in our lifetime) he might publish a real scientific report.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chillie, I agree with you that Tut started work on his own tomb (probably WV23) after his coronation and it was too unfinished and unsuitable at the time of his death, so the tomb which was most likely Aye`s was pressed into service.
My main consideration was that if Maia`s tomb was finished before Tut`s death, it would have been built in the same timeframe as the tomb intended for him. Hers got finished, his was far from finished. Did she have the better and faster workers?(only joking)

She cannot have ordered such a lavish tomb at such a prestigious site (among the highest officials of the time) without the support and maybe even initiative of the king, so works started definitely after the coronation.
I think the answer to my problem is simply that she had much more time than him because she outlived Tut, maybe for a coniderable time, and his death was not alluded to in her tomb.
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christphe
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

high ranked "servants" had incredible tomb in saqqara like Maya, horemheb and Maia. (there is a possibility that an open court was built in front of the tomb)
I wonder if Ay or Nathkim had tombs built in Saqqara.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Lutz, are you sure that Zahi is talking here about DNA-test results or rather the results of scanning and x-raying? ...
No I am not, just in case of the two foetuses from KV 62. As I wrote, don`t have the book. Just quoted the quote ... Wink Thought it would be of interest for one or the other ...
That Hawass is talking many when there is a camera on him ... We all know, I think ! Laughing

Greetings, Lutz.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as known, christphe, the only known tombs of Aye were KV23 (which was probably originally intended or Tutankhamun) and a large, unfinished tomb in Amarna.
Nathkim--I don't think I've ever heard of a tomb for him that has been discovered.
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christphe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it hasn't been discovered yet but it had existed for sure. There are two statues executed with royal perfection, i wonder where they came from?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The statue found was that of Nakhtmin and his wife. It was severely damaged--only his head and shoulders, along with the torso of his wife. I do not know where it was found, but with the extensive damage, I would think it is from Amarna.
There is no actual proof that he was Aye's son, but theoretically it seems quite likely.
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Sasheeta
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chillie wrote:
I highly doubt the Meritaten angle.

Ay and Horemhab were servants before ascending yes.

But I doubt Meritaten would go from Crown Princess (and Queen at one point?) to a wet-nurse. And wouldn't that require another child, about Tut's age, for milk to be produced? You must bear a child recently to have milk, which dries up within days of not nursing.

As far as I know, Meritaten Ta-Sherit came around year twelve, Tut around nine.



In the OLD KINGDOM the culture of Seshat "mistress of the Library" was to teach the art of authorship and writing. This imparted knowledge of the science and astronomy held within the books. Learning this knowledge was sacred because it connected them to the netherworld. Thoth was instructed by Isis to go to Seshat for knowledge. In the book of Thoth there are many references to wanting to drink the breast milk, as if to say, wanting to learn and be taught like a baby how to enter heaven, to know the way of the journey. Humage was given to the women and her ability to impart knowledge. The "one who loves knowledge" is like a child, new, open, and ready to be fed to no end. The women, and men who were priest of that same knowledge, were held in high esteem from the infancy beginnings of KMT.
from L01 "Vulture Text," column x+3
Line 20: Let one say to me the nurse who nurtures language that I may make a suckling from her breast." B02, 4/1 references the "Breast of knowledge"

The one who loves knowledge, he says: "O, may your prophecy be eternally young! O foremost one of (or before) the house of documents! Begin with your children of your teaching. " taken from the Book of Thoth.

Just as we do today, reading is fundamental, we start when they are young.

Here are some later references to breast and milk. Think "thirst for knowledge" while reading.
Pyramid Text
Utt. 41, § 32: Take the tip of Horus's own breast, take what is for
your mouth - milk, 1 jar.
Utt 42, § 32b: Take the breast of your sister Isis the milk-provider,
which you shall take to your mouth - an empty mnz3-jar.
Utt. 268, § 372: Isis nurses him, Nephthys suckles him, Horus accepts
him beside him.
Utt. 269, § 381-2: O my mother Ipy, give me this breast of yours, that
I may apply it to my mouth and suck this your white, gleaming, sweet
milk. As for yonder land in which I walk, I will neither thirst nor
hunger in it forever.
Utt. 325, § 531: O Re, give me your hand, for Shu takes me to be
'Companion of Shu', and I have sucked the milk of the two black cows,
the nurses of the Souls of On.
Utt. 365, § 623: Receive your [the King] dignity, for your foot will
not be obstructed in the sky, you will not be opposed on earth, for
you are a spirit whom Nut bore, whom Nephthys suckled, and they put
you together.
Utt. 406, § 707: Bring me the milk of Isis, the flood of Nephthys,
the overspill of the lake, the surge of the sea, life prosperity,
health, happiness, bread, beer, clothing, and food that I might live
thereby.'
Utt. 412, § 729: Your mother is the great wild cow who dwells in
Nekheb, white of head-cloth, long of plumes, and pendulous of breasts;
she suckles you and will not wean you.
Utt. 413, § 734: Raise yourself, O king! You have your water, you
have your inundation, you have your milk which is from the breasts of
Mother Isis.
Utt. 470, §§ 910-913: I know my mother, I have not forgotten my mother
the White Crown, splendid and stout, dwelling in Nekheb, Lady of the
Pr-wr, Lady of the Land of Pastures, Lady of the Secret Land, Lady of
the Field of Fishers, Lady of the Valley of the Blessed. 'O Ruddy
One, O Red Crown, O Lady of the lands of Dep, O my mother,' say I,
'give me your breast that I may suck from it,' say I. 'O my son,'
says she, 'take my breast and suck it,' says she, 'that you may live,'
says she, 'and be little again,' says she. 'You will ascend to the
sky as do falcons, your feathers being those of ducks,' says she.
Utt. 508, § 1109: She [Nekhbet] will have compassion in me and will
give me her breast that I may suck it; 'My son,' says she, 'take this
breast of mine and suck it, ' says she; 'turn about, O you who have not
yet come to the number of your days.'
Utt. 508, § 1119: 'My father, I have come to these two mothers of
mine, the two vultures long of hair and pendent of breasts who are on
the Mountain of Shsh, that they may extend their breasts to my mouth
and never wean me.'
Utt. 548, § 1344: Nut the Great puts her hands on him, (even) she the
long-horned, the pendulous of breast. She suckles this King and does
not wean him.
Utt. 553, § 1354: O King, because you are a spirit whom Nephthys
suckled with her left breast.
Utt. 555, § 1375: My mother is Isis, my nurse is Nephthys, she who
suckled me is the Sh3t-Hr cow , Neith is behind me, and Selket is
before me.
Utt. 565, § 1428: Selket [variant: Nephthys] has set her hands on me,
she has extended her breast to my mouth.
Utt. 661, § 1873: O my father the King, take this milky fluid of yours
which is in the breasts of you mother Isis; O Nephthys, give him your
hand.
Utt. 675, § 2003: O King, you have no human father who could beget
you, you have no human mother who could bear you; your mother is the
Great Wild Cow who dwells in Nekheb, white of head-cloth, long of
hair, and pendulous of breasts, she suckles you and does not wean you.

(All trans. from Faulkner 1969)


Depictions of divine wet-nurses appear as early as the 5th Dynasty
(Sahure is the earliest known) in the funerary reliefs, and the
iconography would seem to support the ideology as presented in the
Pyramid Texts.
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Solon
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The debate on Maya and whether she could have been Merytaten is fascinating. Certainly Merytaten appears to have been a much more significant figure than is sometimes supposed. For example she is the only Amarna queen/noblewoman to be mentioned in the Armarna letters - ie in EA10 from Burra-Buriyas of Babylon ('... and concerning your daughter Mayati, having heard about her, I send to her as greeting gift...'. etc) and EA155 from Abi-Milku of Tyre who seems to consider himself both the servant of the King and of Mayati ('should the King, my Lord, give water to drink to the servant of Mayati, then I will devote myself to his service and that of Mayati my mistress, night and day.') Curiously he also calls Tyre the city of Mayati ('the King has charged me with guarding the city of Mayati, my mistress...'). Note that in all the Amarna correspondence, there is no mention of Nefertiti, Kiya etc. Barry Kemp also convinced that the North Palace at Amarna was finally intended for Merytaten as eldest princess and heiress.
None of this of course answers the question of why she might have been a feeding nurse to Tutankhamun!
I have ordered a copy of Zivie's book but have no idea when it will arrive. Anybody else been successful?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Tiye is referred to in a letter to Akhenaten as 'your mother' and several letters concern foreign wives of Amenhotep III specifically a sister of the king of Babylon and Tadukhipa.

Frankly the referrences quoted make me wonder if we are right to equate 'Mayati' with Merytaten. Whoever she may be she seems to be a lot more active in the Syrian possessions than one would expect a consort to be.
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