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Gt. Hymn to Aten: Transliteration
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: Gt. Hymn to Aten: Transliteration Reply with quote

Can someone point me to a transliteration of the Great Hymn to The Aten?

Perfect would be: original(s) >>> transliteration >>> translation

The specific line I am interested in is regarding the mention of Syria and Nubia...

How manifold are your works
which are hidden from sight,
you sole god without equal!
You have created the earth as you desired, quite alone,
with people, cattle, and all creatures,
with everything upon earth
that walks about on feet
and all that is on high and flies with its wings.
The foreign lands of Syria and Nubia,
and the land of egypt-
...


What transliterated terms were used to translate into Syria and Nubia?

Appreciated, thx
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a German translation on this page:
http://www.astrodoc.net/andere/atonhymnus/hymnus.htm

I think the reference to the foreign countries is:
sn xAswt xAr kS sn qmt

The foreign lands of Khar, Kush and the land of Kmt.

The glyphs you can find on the page mentioned above.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx

anneke wrote:
The foreign lands of Khar...


Specifically the 'Khar' reference; also here... http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/amarna/belief.html but how do we get Khar = Syria? - a search on Khar tells me that: 'Khar is a word used in Ancient Egyptian documents to refer to the southern part of Canaan'-

Syria is north of what might be referred to as the land of Cannan, is the use of Syria simply a moderisation (albeit not very accurate) for Khar?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't knowto be honest.

I'm not sure why they would translate it as "Syria", unless it's some attempt to provide us with a term that may sound more familiar (even though it may not accurately describe the geographical area in question)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is interesting... the national term Syria has changed over time and represented different geographies at different times. If the term Khar is fixed in so far as it relates to an area in the southern region of Cannan, then use of the term Syria must be wrong for the Amarna period- it could however be loosely interpreted as correct for the period of Assyrian domination or Chaldean Empire, but that is some many years in the (then) future

This clickable map link purports to show AE at around 1450bc http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/africamaps/ss/021009mapsegypt_2.htm if this is correct then Khar might be better referred to as present day Isreal or Palestine. Perhaps the decision to use the term Syria was political rather than historical... just a thought


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there any other mentions of the land of Khar anywhere?

The only other mention I can find re; Khar, is relative to a measure etc... example: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/glossary.htm#k

What I am trying to get at (or discover) is what motivated the translator (original or copyist) to determine that Khar from xAr or x3r = Syria, or Southern Canaan, or the later Kingdom of Judah, or wherever?!? - how did he/she know how to place (geographically) the name?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the information available, online at least, it seems the use of the translated term Khar may be anomalous... unless anyone can shed any light (show additional use) on this matter? - whatever the case, wherever Khar may be... and moving on a step, I was thinking about the argument for Universalism of Aten, the line re; Syria and Cush being commonly cited as evidence for this posit

If I understand this correctly (which I may not) would the presence of the recumbent-lion symbol not demonstrate that the 'foreign lands' referenced in the text not change the meaning to territories?

This being the case, could it not be argued that Akhenaten claiming Aten as God of all egypt and it's territories is not specifically a universalist (god) claim, but merely a political claim to title-of-the-lands in question???



Do I understand the use of this glyph correctly?

Further... could this line not indicate Akhenten's claim to lands through his wives (marriages)? - in other words (just like kings of europe might have laid claim to 'foreign lands' through marriage), could the hymn not be actually pointing us towards the source (nationality) of Nefertiti and Kiya?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
If I understand this correctly (which I may not) would the presence of the recumbent-lion symbol not demonstrate that the 'foreign lands' referenced in the text not change the meaning to territories?


The recumbent lion sign (E23) is the /r/ part of the word /xAr/, but the T14 throwstick denotes the entire word of /xAr/ as a foreign land (Hannig 1995: 1372b). sign

freeTinker wrote:


Do I understand the use of this glyph correctly?


No.

Reference:

Hannig, R. 1995. Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch-Deutsch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.). Kulturegeschichte der Antiken Welt 64. Mainz: von Zabern.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you.

back to trying to understand Khar (or it's geographic location) for now...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a discussion in A history of Egypt under the Pharaohs: derived entirely from the monuments ...‎ by Heinrich Karl Brugsch, Henry Danby Seymour

But note that this book dates to 1881!!

So I guess all we can say is that at one point it was proposed that Khar (or Khal) referred to Phoenicia. I don't know if this is still a widely held theory?

In the footnote there is mention of a reference to Khar in Assyrian sources.

Given this identification (at least early on) with the lands of the Phoenicians it does not seem too strange to me that they would later translate Khar as Syria. It seems that the actual area may have been larger, but may have contained Syria.
I'm not saying it's a 100% correct, but maybe the best they could do?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
...Khar (or Khal) referred to Phoenicia...


Thank you.

Interestingly, the term Khal which you have just referenced, is also (like Khar) a unit of measurement (Arabic). Confusingly (for me), the little 1,000 glyph (flower thingie) together with the perception of units of measurement did (do) not seem to make sense; being unable to translate glyphs etc., my limitations frustrate. Why is the little 1,000 symbol present?

The possible Phoenecian context etc., is interesting and strangely links in with the book I am reading currently. Thx

Can't help thinking, one of you learned folks here could make a bunch out of publishing an up-to-date, line-by-line, glyph-by-glyph; modern transliteration, translation of the Great Aten Hymn. Not only, but it could make for a great $50 workshop for folks to attend! - just a thought
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "lotus glyph" just has the phonetic value of "kh".
And it happens the meaning of the word in this context is determined by the glyph showing 2 hills. That means that the word Khar here is meant to be interpreted as the word for a geographic location. In this case a land.
(There are also determinatives that indicate you're talking about a city for instance)

So khar (no determinative) means thousand
khar with land determinative means the country of Khar.

Kinda like "turkey" can refer to an animal as well as a country, depending on context.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you most kindly.

Your referenced book making mention of Khar/Khal dating to 1881 interestingly would seem to predate the first study of the Hymn; Breasted 1885 and even the few slightly earlier copies made 83/84, all according to one of Neseret's favorites- Hornung. This would indicate that there was an older-known (additional) source/use for the name 'Khar'. This interests... in that, if that(these) source(s) could be identified in similar glyph-form then, because of the seemingly uncommon use of the term, it may indicate(support) possible authorship; personal, geographic or religious etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To soliloquize somewhat further; it seems that use of the AE term 'Khar' is the similar to (if not the same as) that geographically represented by (the Biblical) Horites; gen.36:20, deut.2:12 who it seems inhabited the land around Mt. Seir forming the south-eastern border of Edom and Judah and possibly functioning as the (then current) border of Egypt and Canaan, ie; it could have been interpreted the northern extent of 'empire' (?), it then would make sense that mention of Cush/Nubia etc. in the same breath (in the hymn) could refer to the southern extent of dominion (?)

I fully understand the showing of the little-throw-stick-glyph is related to 'foreign-land(s)', but could it not also (or otherwise be interpreted to) mean border(-land)?

It would be real good to show other examples of use of same/simliar glyphs representing 'Khar', does anyone know of any other? - they must exist since the text from the book mentioned above predates the translation of the Great Hymn...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: xAr - Khar - Syria Reply with quote

Quote:
It would be real good to show other examples of use of same/simliar glyphs representing 'Khar'
... just to name a few Smile
Arrow Lepsius Tafelwerke Abt. III. Bl. 218, stela c, line 7
Arrow Lepsius Tafelwerke Abt. III. Bl. 126, Karnak Temple, North wall, b (over king in chariot)
Arrow Source: TLA Pap. Beathy
Arrow Source: TLA (underlined glyphs)
Arrow Source: TLA Pap. Bologna (first line, underlined glyphs)
Arrow Source: TLA Merenptah's Stela (last line)
Arrow Source: TLA (first line)

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