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Who are we missing
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Who are we missing Reply with quote

We have a goo discussion on the mummies of the Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs (the ones that have been identified).

My question is: (Pharaohs only- unless you happen to have lots of information on other royals you wish to share without me crossing old posts)

* Who are we missing?

If this question is too broad to answer due to the HUGE number of Pharaohs, then i will instead ask the following:

* Who are the MOST IMPORTANT (opinions are very much welcomed) missing Royal mummies? I will start with Ankhesenamun.
Idea

Thank You
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CSM
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if we are talking about the New Kingdom only:

Nefertiti...
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Who are we missing Reply with quote

Styler78 wrote:
Who are we missing?

If talking about the NK (Kings only):
Thutmose I - as the mummy attributed to him doesn't "fit".
Akhenaten / Smenkhkare - although matches have been suggested.
Horemheb, Amenmesse, Tausret - completely missing.
Sethnakht - "the body on the boat".
Ramesses VIII, VIII, X, XI.

I'd suggest:
http://www.mummytombs.com/egypt/pharaohmummies.htm
http://members.tripod.com/anubis4_2000/Bookmarks.htm
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Neferseshat
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Re: Who are we missing Reply with quote

[quote="Segereh"]
Styler78 wrote:

Akhenaten / Smenkhkare - although matches have been suggested.


I thought of this one, too. And one more: Neferneferuaten.

But wasn't the KV 55 skull been proved to be Smenkhare? Or it's only the closest speculation?

Quote:
Sethnakht - "the body on the boat".


Is the corpse still there?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The KV 55 mummy according to Joyce Filer is that of a young man in his late teens to early 20's who is related to the royal family. He may be Smenkhare, then again there is no definitive proof of that.


The mummy in the boat was found in KV 35. I think the body was destroyed in a fire after the find? It was suggested it may be the body of Sethnakht, but why they would identify the body as his I don't know
http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages2/UnidentifiedandMissing.htm
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joyce Filer did an extensive autopsy on the skeletal remains from KV55, but reached no absolute conclusions, other, than as you say, it proved to be the body of a young man related to the Royal Family.
Off the record, and in her own personal opinion, she is quoted as saying "I'm 99% sure it is Smenkhkara", but I don't know exactly why she is so sure.
I agree, though. Even though KV55 was a jumble of several burials--obviously a re-burial (from Aketaten?) the scale seems to tilt in favor of Smenkhkara.
If it WAS a re-burial, it raises several questions. Among the most promenant is the question of Tiye. Did her son--Akhenaten--have her buried at Aketaten? If so, where? Why wasn't she interred with Amenhotep III?
That's the fascination with Amarna. The more questions answered, the deeper into the Amarna Tar Pits we wander!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Off the record, and in her own personal opinion, she is quoted as saying "I'm 99% sure it is Smenkhkara", but I don't know exactly why she is so sure.

It may be that with an age of ca 20-25, there are not that many options.
Either this is Smenkhare, or if it's Akhenaten, then he would have had to come to the throne at age 3-8. That would be a bit of a stretch.

And the other option would be that this is another unknown male royal, closely related to Tutankhamen. It's possible that there were 3 royal sons: Smenkhare, Tutankhamen and "the Prince from KV55". But that is a lot of bending over backward to explain the finds we have.

LOL Unless there was an ancient mix-up when Tut was buried and this man was reburied. Then KV 55 could be Tutankhamen, and KV62 could be Smenkhare. But that assumes the reburial of KV55 overlapped the burial of Tutankhamen, and then further yet, we have a switch of the royal bodies. Very Happy

Just kidding. I don't think that happened.

Osiris II wrote:
Among the most promenant is the question of Tiye. Did her son--Akhenaten--have her buried at Aketaten? If so, where? Why wasn't she interred with Amenhotep III?

I thought it was assumed Tiye was originally buried in the royal tomb at Amarna? I wonder if she died in Amarna?

The reburial in KV 55 does make one wonder if all the royal mummies from Amarna were moved to Thebes. I think Reeves for instance is working from that hypothesis.
In that case there would have been a reburial of: Akhenaten, Nefertiti, Tiye, Meritaten, Maketaten, Kiya and likely Neferneferuaten, Setepenre and Neferneferure as well. Plus possibly Meritaten-tasherit and Ankhesenpaaten-tasherit and Baketaten. (kinda ignoring for the moment who the two tasherits were).
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any Kingdom, not just the New Kingdom. The more the merrier... headbang
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
The mummy in the boat was found in KV 35. I think the body was destroyed in a fire after the find? It was suggested it may be the body of Sethnakht, but why they would identify the body as his I don't know
http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages2/UnidentifiedandMissing.htm


pretty sure the tomb was broken into and the body on the boat was stolen.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loret mentions the body in the boat. It has black hair and is propped up.
But I don't know when that mummy was lost. There are some (poor quality) pictures of it.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
The reburial in KV 55 does make one wonder if all the royal mummies from Amarna were moved to Thebes. I think Reeves for instance is working from that hypothesis.


No, Aidan Dodson presented the main theory some years ago about the reburial of the Amarna royals in

Dodson, A. 1992. KV 55 and the end of the reign of Akhenaten. In Atti, Ed., VI Congresso Internationale di Egittologia, 1: 135-139. Turin: International Association of Egyptologists.

Most Egyptologists tend to stick with this theory as possible.

There is evidence of Tiye's burial at Amarna in the Royal Tomb there, according to Reeves and Wilkinson (1996). There's little doubt she was removed to KV 55, along with part of her burial shrine.

That she was removed and then reinterred for a third time back in Amenhotep III's tomb (KV 22) seems sure from the archaeological evidence. Eventually, if one believes the identification of the "Elder Lady" with Tiye, she ended up in KV 35.

As to the "missing" I have heard no mention of Aye as part of the missing. As far as I know, he is (Reeves 1990).

Reference:

Reeves, C. N. 1990. The Valley of the Kings: The Decline of a Royal Necropolis. London: Kegan Paul International.

Reeves, N. and R. H. Wilkinson 1996. The Complete Valley of the Kings: Tombs and Treasures of Egypt's Greatest Pharaohs. London: Thames and Hudson.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
anneke wrote:
The reburial in KV 55 does make one wonder if all the royal mummies from Amarna were moved to Thebes. I think Reeves for instance is working from that hypothesis.


No, Aidan Dodson presented the main theory some years ago about the reburial of the Amarna royals in

Dodson, A. 1992. KV 55 and the end of the reign of Akhenaten. In Atti, Ed., VI Congresso Internationale di Egittologia, 1: 135-139. Turin: International Association of Egyptologists.

Most Egyptologists tend to stick with this theory as possible.


Thanks for that I did not know that this theory originated with Dodson.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: Who are we missing Reply with quote

The eldest son of Amenhotep III, Thutmose, is also missing. I think few people believe that he could be the boy in KV 35 because of the boy`s young age. Thutmose was commander of the troops already and as such shuold have been a bit older. He,too, could be a candidate for the KV 55
mummy after all (especially if one believes as some do that there actually was no male individual called Semenkhkare).
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the kv 55 mummy is a brother or father of tut, im not sure if the blood typing is enough to say if it could be an uncle?
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: who are we missing Reply with quote

I am still not ruling out the possibiliy that Tut was AIII`son instead of Akhenaten`s, in fact I think some evidence (however circumstantial) points towards this thoery. This would make Thutmose and Tut full brothers, but I must admit that my assumption of Thutmose being the KV55 mummy is pure speculation.
By the way, I have heard new speculations regarding the mummy usually identified as being AIII. The mummy was suggested to be either Thutmosis IV, Aye or even Akhenaten (the latter was suggested in a TV docu without any convincing evidence).

I thought the features of the mummy in question would quite well go along with what we know about AIII in his later life (e.g. obesity, poor health,
very bad teeth and middle to advanced age). After all there are a few depictions of him showing him to be at least corpulent, and did he not order a statue of Ishtar to improve his health? If, however, this mummy is not his he is missing,too, as there is no other mummy said to be his.
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